Unsure … it says the amount of energy the drive system can output, not only the engine. If drive system = power source + controller + motor it would allow a more powerful motor if the controller limits the output … right? I hate laws 
see section “1.2. Messung” … that looks like a test of the engine power inside the complete system … not on it’s own
as far as I know the motor needs to be tested with the S1 standard:
2.2. S1 Dauerbetrieb
Betrieb mit konstantem Belastungszustand, dessen Dauer ausreicht, den thermischen Beharrungszustand zu erreichen.
which means the temperature the motor produces is the crucial point. An SK3 will probably not reach the “thermischen Beharrungszustand” with just 250W (if you don’t supply just 1V ;))
does “thermischen Beharrungszustand” not only mean that you need to use it until the temperature of the motor stays constant?
In the 2.2 section you quoted there is a link to this thread: especially this post: There is not that much about the legal things of the 250W limit, but they seem to interpret the limit as average of typical use with temporal spikes allowed.
As i sayed earlier. A motor that produces 250 watts at 24V would produce around 375 watts at 36V. And the battery is not regulated. So you only can limit it by the power output. The bigger problem we have is if it is allowed to keep the actual speed with the motor or not.
The “Smart Ped” keeps the speed for 500 seconds with a miaximum of 250 watts. And they advertise that it is allowed in Germany. So they are lying or they found way. But i also could not find any more detailed infomation about it.
I just thought that i can do that as well so started modifying the vesc firmware with a innocent feeling.
BTW , can sombedoy who has a sensored motor tell me if the motor gives a more stable rpm signal than a unsesored motor with the VESC.
legal in germany can also mean that you are allowed to drive it in your driveway … or did they advertise something more specific?
for keeping the speed or slowing down the assistive force over time … maybe we find some other devices which fall under this regulation and answer the question on this way.
Ok i found it … Der Tagesspiegel writes:
nach Angaben seines Erfinders darf es legal auf der Straße und auf dem Radweg fahren
I don’t expect any reply … but i’ll ask them directly on which legal base this is allowed on german roads … maybe it works 
Awesome. Thank’s for the help.
It’s in my own interest I planned to make my build as stealth as possible … but the motor is sooo big … it will not be stealth at all. Someone got an insurance for his board, but that does not cover all legal problems and i think he was just lucky to meet the right insurance guy at the right time ^^ And come on … a number plate on a skateboard? So your possible solution is the only way for me to maybe not have to think about a 1500€ fine all the time.
Wow that’s a huge fine.
And that’s a strange law which it seems is still not understood
How about you just limit the erpm on the vesc or the max amps to the motor? limiting the amps to the motor would be a true way to limit the power. limit the erpm to just go slower and satisfy the police In USA there are a lot of people riding boards and bikes that are illegal and no one knows and the cops don’t care. With a 250watt limit, they will never be able to truly test a 250watt output and neither will you and ur basing it on the input of course so you’re sure to have a bit of wiggle room.
You could also try to get an insurance and leave the licence plate at home because riding without a licence plate is just a baby delict (fine 60 €) compared to riding without an insurance.
the law in Austria is a bit more relaxed and declares e-scooters up to 600w and 25km/h max as bicycles, so you don’t need a plate or insurance for them. Problem is that definition only covers 2-wheeled vehicles and they say nothing about Eboards. The legal situation is just unclear atm. I bought a board with low-wattage motors (500w total), top speed is alot higher tho, so it’s illegal aswell. I just accept being an outlaw then and try to avoid confrontations with police.
yes that seems to work but it’s only one part of the legal problems.
nice … didn’t know that it’s still insured without licence plate … so with much effort to find an insurance company which would make a special agreement like Cantholz84 got ( Rechtliche Auseinandersetzung - Seite 4 - Rechtliches (Straßenverkehr, Versicherungen, eKFV) - elektro-skateboard.de ) this would be an emergency solution ^^ but lets hope that the ideas in this thread work out, that would be less difficult. I think even if we find out that the only assisting board with an average of 250W output may be legal but the laws are not specific enough it should stop some law enforcements from opening a case.
Quite new to esk8 (no practical experience atm, but I’ve read hour the last days), but I hope this information helps a little bit to get this topic further. This Guy sells a so called “Gasgriff-Freischalter” which detects if the biker is pedalling or not (and other things to upgrade to an ebike) It’s also quite interesting to read about pseudo pedalling, which means the biker only has to keep the Pedal rotating, the engine gives the power. Seems as many upgrade bicyclists are also in a grey zone… http://www.groetech.de/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath
Max. speed 25km/h: I think a software limit would be ok, as long If you keep it. You have always the possibility to cheat afterwards. Same with the good old Mofa. You Can drive it as built by the manufacturer or tune/manipulation it to higher power/speed afterwards…
Max. Power: dunno if there is a offroad mode for some e mountain bikes, but 2 weeks ago my collegues saw an 120kg guy riding his e-fatbike offroad uphill with at least 20km/h, where they struggled with their mountainbikes with 6km/h. Must have consumed more than 250W during this time. Maybe there is also a possibility to make a software based powercouter/averager in VESC?
@dude thanks for the link with the license plate story.
Got an answer from the FlyKly company who made the Smart Ped. But until now the only information i’ve got is that in difference to e-skateboards they don’t accelerate and that makes them legal. I asked pretty detailed but the answer was a bit short Ok they have many target countries so they can not have everything ready. Will let you know when i get some more insight from them.
some additional information, which you may have read before:
Some information about vehicle classification in Germany/EU: https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.dekra.de/fileadmin/lokationdata/niederlassung_chemnitz/niederlassung_chemnitz/dokumente/2014-06-26_Verkehrssymposium_2014_Grohmann_v3.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwih5P7TnPPOAhVmOpoKHQgGBSAQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNFFcyA24QQ4Nb0AtHJu-XhHMonZ2Q
The more I read something about it, a esk8 could slso be a “elektronische Mobilitaetshilfe”, which is in the class of powered vehicles, but limited to only 20km/h…
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/mobhv/BJNR209710009.html
Maybe the ADAC (Automotive Club in Germany) legal department could also help with this topic: https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/fi_elektronische_mobilitaetshilfen_sp_0214_38557.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjjt4-8h_TOAhWGBZoKHZINDh8QFggjMAQ&usg=AFQjCNHwlvJlvraz7Wns0pu3MJgQpuUuuw
Did not get any more details from FlyKly. Their findings seem to result in the same like ours.
And if i understand them correctly … they think that the maximum amount of time you are allowed to keep that speed is 500 sec.
I will not try to get more from them, they don’t seem to have the time for this or they just didn’t research this stuff in detail … no idea … They also wrote they wanna get an official certification … but who knows on what priority they have this and how long that could take … so better not wait for anything there.
500s is a seemingly very large number. That is 8min of cruising and should me more than enough for us.
Seems like this could in fact be done - i’d be so happy if we could make this legal. Just telling that security guard at work that he can no longer prohibit me from riding would me an amazing feeling.
I came pretty far with the software. Feels quite good at the moment and i try to make the carving feel as natural possible. Only problem is that the rpm’s differ alot when you carve. Hopefully we can find out if this setup without acceleration is allowed.
Funny thing is that it makes even fun to ride that way. You get the feeling againof doing some sport because you have to push to the speed you want. And another positive side effect is that my average wh consumption of 10 Wh/km came down to around 5 Wh/km.
And during testing with other settings i found out that it is really relaxing to cruise with max 750 watt power.
Wäre es nicht einfacher nen 250w motor zu benutzen der einfach unterstützend ist? Also so das wenn man Voll gas gibt man trz. lansgamer wird. Einfach damit man länger ausrollt. (rpm und Amp einfach runterregeln das der motor nicht mehr kann als 25kmh) Wenn man dann noch Cruise controll benutzt mit mit einem schalter der im board als druckplatte/trittschalter fungiert müsst das doch dem gesetz gerecht werden oder? In meiner stadt gibt es ein Straßen verkehrsamt. Wenn ich da mal vorbei komme und zeit hab werd ich einfach mal reingehen und versuchen da mal nachzufragen ob das so legal ist bzw wie man das ganze legal machen kann.
Is there anything we can do to help? I am really looking forward to this and can not wait to try it.