Sorting out the origins of direct drive

ESK8 Electronics
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@oyta when someone makes claims such as this they’re not longer claiming to be innovators, they think they invented something, but far from it and respect due to the real originators. :fist:

pics w dates attached. Notice the motors are exactly the same.

First stielz shows what he made

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Then this follows

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this last pic is of a new thread started by lever soon after those above where he starts to sell stielz design

I’m sure you’ve INOVATED since the first design, which fair to say you copied, not that that’s bad, but don’t claim you discovered it or anything like that and I won’t come in correcting

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Good old ES. Still a marvoulous wealth of information.

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Hummie laying down the chronological law.

I do however find you two and Jason bickering like children while acting as vendors (fair enough Hummie isn’t running a business out of it but still) to be really pathetic.

None of you invented a truck, a wheel or a motor. You moved them around on the truck and it looks like you worked hard at perfecting that, which I respect, but honestly. Innovation worth bickering about here in front of your customers? Probably not.

Just make shit and calm down. The threats and whining help no one.

Decide if you’re running businesses or if this is an old school skate friends hobby, you can’t really have both.

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Tried making a pilgrimage but there’s jsut so much and it caters less to esk8

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Sorry @Hummie, not doubting you. Just trying to keep a good mood :slightly_smiling_face:

I love the products from both of you. Hope I can invest one day.

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I’ve stayed out of it this long. and probably should stay out of it. But you have to understand that John and Jerry come from different angles.

John wants to build cool shit that he wants to ride (not necessarily what others want, i.e. why there’s no other wheel sizes yet or sensors), and sells it to the community so they can enjoy it and test it also.

Jerry see’s eskate as a business and is always looking to make a quick buck. If he can take something from china, modifying it, and sell it for a profit, he’s happy. Jerry understands that to make it as a business though, he needs good designs. But I don’t think he see’s the value in building his own motors instead of using off the self china motors.

These guys have completely different approaches to solving the same problem.

@LEVer I don’t mean any disrespect to you. I still consider you a friend in the eskate world. Both you and John are innovators. But these ideas did all start from the same thread in ES. From that, you’ve solved a lot of the problems that came up with that design, i.e. innovating, a better direct drive design. John tried this original design, and ultimately, decided to do a hub motor after Jacobs vaporware hub motor failed to deliver.

DD’s probably wouldn’t be that well known if it wasn’t for you Jerry. You took an idea and a design, and worked the hell out of it to make a new drive system better (you worked out the flaws). I respect you for your work in this.

John, because of his personal situation, doesn’t have a family to feed, or kids to dress, or xyz. He can live in his own world, developing cool shit and having fun. You both come from different places. But here’s another idea… Take all of this passion, and turn it into great products for the community.

With sensors going in hummie hubs this weekend, and Jerry bringing more DD’s out, and @torqueboards new DD and The raptor 2 hubs, and more, 2019 will be another great year of innovation.

Do you want to see how your products fair against the competition? Then make sure they are at the Barrett Junction, January 19, 2019…

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Haha, great copy and paste the first few iterations without going forward and showing the what difference and major improvements I did from it.

Here are the facts:

  • I was doing a Friction Drive with SK3 motors with skirt bearing. It needed a skirt bearing to make sure both ends of the cans are supported. You saw that blog and video. I’ve been tinkering for a long time.

  • Immediately I saw the ease of putting the SK3 motor inside the big wheel that I was using and make it a hub motor. I just didn’t have a lathe.

  • I saw stielz thread and asked him if he was gonna sell it. He said no and I proceeded with my project.

  • I bought a lathe and made my own hubmotors. I did not take the pictures of stielz and go to an engineer or China to have it done. I made my own.

  • I made it different because stielz epoxied the stator onto the hanger, which makes it ineffective to service the inside bearing. I used fasteners to make sure I can still remove the stator and service the big skirt bearing.

  • After some time, the V1 had a lot of problems. Then I made V2. Please show me someone who has done that before. In fact, most of the design from today’s hub motors came from there, the offset motor (backfire hubs), the not-boring-all-through-the-wheel design and leaving the outside edge (mellow, inboard, raptor, etc.). Then of course V3 and V4.

Now, if you wanna talk about someone who really didn’t know anything but just had a mechanical engineer help him (have you paid him yet for his services?), why don’t we talk to Marc or username in Endless Sphere “addicted2climbing” to find out who really designed your motor.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=68217&hilit=addicted2climbing

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The first small hub motors came from Charles of MIT, his website, http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?page_id=1663.

He was doing it for escooters. I have spoken to him about wanting to do if for a skateboard, this was all when I was still pediglide.

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I welcome you asking Marc. I was talking to him yesterday. Please ask him and bring the info here.

The point: you think and presented that you came up with the design out of nowhere. Not true obviously looking at the posts above

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I don’t bother designing motors because I have realized early on that the problem lies on designing a new truck. That’s what I did and that’s what I have done.

The only difference between today’s motors and what we had back then was that now you have different stator teeth and magnet counts. Everything else is the same. But the trucks, especially the axle are very different now.

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I never said I invented hub motors. What I said is that I improved it…big difference.

What is this, is it because you have hub motors? Dude…go do your thing.

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I’ll cut and paste what u said again here since you seem to forget.

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LEVER:

“There was no road map for me, no prior art on how to correctly do it. Then someone just literally grabs the thing you’re working on and runs away with it. Unlike TB, I create my products personally, because I want to personally know if it works, so I’m very invested in it.

I know you guys are fuming at me because of the delays. But you guys cannot deny the fact that CARVON literally came up with something that is revolutionary. And we did it the right way. We did it the hard way.”

That’s what we’re talking about. Read the title. Origin of… and you ain’t it. Don’t claim you were and we can move forward

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Your also assuming though that the assemble of motors is all the same. Why is it after you sent me the last dual drive, after not even 100 miles, my motor burnt out? Wasn’t the vesc, it was fine and still worked with another motor…

One of the reasons I like johns idea of building motors in house is so we can make sure the right stuff is used in the right way. These guys in the factory are told to do this, do that, they don’t understand that the short cut they figured out that saves them time is a Russian rullet that will strike some people later. And they don’t care even if it does. They don’t care about the quality of epoxies they use or magnets or motor wire or metals even.

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Damn dude, do you have problem reading? I was talking about the Direct Drive design where you have the motors out “and” (this is very critical) with new and dedicated and designed-for truck. Can’t you understand that?

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Really? Because the quote I keep reposting from you obviously reads differently. Maybe you should’ve written that

LEVER:

“There was no road map for me, no prior art on how to correctly do it. Then someone just literally grabs the thing you’re working on and runs away with it. Unlike TB, I create my products personally, because I want to personally know if it works, so I’m very invested in it.

I know you guys are fuming at me because of the delays. But you guys cannot deny the fact that CARVON literally came up with something that is revolutionary. And we did it the right way. We did it the hard way.”

Where’s that part?

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I really appreciate and admire that you guys improve the motors…really I do. I’d love to do it and will do in the near future now that I’ve got my truck design down. I just don’t know why you guys pile up on me cause I use off-the-shelf motors. I do that because I know they work already. I just concentrate on the trucks. There’s no point making the best and most powerful motor if your truck will bend.

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Man, you’re a straight up troll. I don’t know if you’re mad at me cause I got out of hubmotors and made DD and now everyone is jumping on that bandwagon, or what.

That’s what I meant by coming up with something revolutionary. Or don’t you want me to say that cause it’s affecting hubmotors. Really, do your thing. If you think hubmotors are fine then do it, prove it, offer it, anything really. Just don’t stop people from innovating. You’re so sour.

EDIT: Or is because of the YADA, YADA, YADA part? Lol

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No point continuing looking for the origin then. We seem to be detouring towards a diversion. Next time don’t make giant ego claims.

Think it’s proven based on what I posted , despite what you write about no prior art and coming up with something revolutionary, not the case. You literally took someone else’s design seemingly exactly.

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So there it is…ego claim…hmmm.