If the loads that make it to the shafts and housings can be quantified I’m sure you could figure exactly how long till the play formed on them will be enough to make stator and rotor rub. At that point it won’t short but the motor will get hot from both frictions and the stator laminations get smudged together and greater heat due to eddy currents. Luckily the magnet plating has shown super durable. But before the motor gets to this state, which is almost worthless, it’ll rattle. I hate rattling wheels.
What would be the ways to fix this issue…larger shaft is one suggestion…what else should be more robust ?
I love the work you’ve done, and I’m glad to hear the great results you’ve had so far testing them.
I just think that, like you said, this is new territory. I would be amazed if anyone in the this industry makes a motor that is flawless on the first go. It sounds like Jason has learned a lot from watching the problems others have had with these. But like you said, this is new territory. Extensive testing is needed, because me and others testing hubs haven’t listed out everything we’ve learned from working with hub motors. This is a problem we have been worried about for a few months, since we started seeing it for our selfs. I ride a min of 10 miles a day. And doing that, it took 8 months before I started noticing this. I don’t think 3 months of testing before shipping will show this problem, which is why I say test it more before shipping.
@jadatmag I don’t want to fight with anyone. I would rather have a discussion about pros and cons of certain techniques, and for everyone to share information freely (since this is an education forum after all). But the second I mention something, Jason attacks me with the classic “show me what you have thats better” argument. There’s never any good discussion that leads to determining if the suggested problem is really a problem or not, and if so, the fix, which is what I’m after, not a fight. We see things differently clearly. I want him to see my point of view, which is that his experience with hub motors has been limited, and making a new type of product you’ve never made before requires extensive testing. He wants to only do short term testing. I believe long term testing (1 year+ of heavy usage) is reuired to know theirs no flaws in your design. Jason has been working hard to paint that image in your head that I’m jealous or something of what he’s managed to do. Everytime I bring up a possible flaw, he paints that image again, instead of having an educated discussion that leads to him building an even better product. I am not jealous though. I am inspired by his relentless determination, and I would love for his products to live up to the hype he creates for them. What I am is annoyed when people make absurd claims and refuse to back them up. Then I’m told to prove him wrong. The burden of proof is on the seller, not the buyer.
If I claim to have a board that flys, and then tell you to prove it doesn’t, you now have to buy my board. Of course it doesn’t fly, so you wasted your money, but who cares, I already have your money. That seems to be the logic here behind enertion. And when people complain, they don’t get a refund without making a fuss and a scene on the forum, and he just keeps getting new customers, so it’s not about keeping a loyal base, it’s about finding new customers who don’t know the last thing you sold failed for a lot of people and you failed to hold your warranty for them because you came up with an excuse not to. That was my experience multiple times over with enertion, which is why I’m so critical of the claims Jason makes. I feel for the hype at one point, and was left feeling scammed with a product that did not do what it was advertised to do.
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Material with Higher deformation numbers for the shaft and housing. An interference fitting is a necessity though if u really want it to last. Even hardened steel skate axles wear down. The motor airgap is so small and any loss in the material or deformation of the material on the shaft and housing and it shows up in the airgap and eventually rubs But everything else, the magnets, stator, wire,…it all holds well if the motor leads are solidly connected. Could last forever it seems. U could even pot all that stuff in resin and then it’ll never vibrate wires creating a short
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I know personal stuff comes in play but, Good to focus on issues on possible weak points and how to make things better, than to talk abt what hub motor is better … I think that will help keep arguments to a low…
We talk abt distances, air gaps, resin etc…how abt materials and design? Are the suggestions you are making real improvements or are they just bandaids because there is a design issue?
I’m no expert, but in my mind…I can only see a few ways to build a hub motor… the only thing that changes is the quality of the materials used. Is that the defining answer? A magic combination of both?
hits to the motor can and overheating are the two main reasons of hub motors failing from what I’m guessing from my experience of “user” (I don’t know anything about mech. engineering, just guessing)
imho it would be good to make extreme stress tests of motor temperature (high power, high resistance for a long time) which could be done on a test bench and mechanical stress test like riding (heavy rider) on cobblestone (a lot of vibrations) or going down hard 1 step (big hit on the motor can) repeadetly.
Do you guys think that the lateral forces too would affect more than heavvy vibrations - like when carving at high speed?
With my belt drive I usually go on top of anything, the most that can happen is that the belt loosens a bit (or breaks) if I take a lot of vibrations or a big hit
With hubs I try to not go over bumps/cracks as much as I can because I don’t want to damage the motor. I tried smts and the version I had last 1y ago failed in the first weeks, Carvons v.2.5 (at least for now) are holding up very well - unfortunately here in london uk around where I live the roads are not very good and on bike paths and in parks there are a lot of bumps made for bikes but not for skates lol - I haven’t tried jacob hubs enough time to tell but they seemed to accumulate more heat than the carvons. Also probably for all the light riders / riders that have the luxury of going on perfect asphalt hubs will be fine.
I can ramble on an on but people will be annoyed soon. U need interference fitted bearings and the materials that can stand the loads that will be transmitted through them. Steel is an easy choice. If u can open the motor up without a press then it’s slide fitted and will not last nearly as long. If it’s slide fitted aluminum good luck and best to ride it maybe once a month and then it might last
Are you working on a new motor? I thought you were done?
I haven’t proven my motor out and won’t go into details until A) it is proven and B) I have a bare minimum amount of cash flow resulting from my efforts. There is nothing special about the internal mechanics of my motor except for tight tolerance, press fit, and big ass bearings.
Regardless if any of us get annoyed you have a right to share your info based on your personal experience. It’s valid points that can be applied to all hubs motors of similar design.
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Just getting started.
Ill have finished putting these new ones together in about a month. Anyone who got the older motors is eligible for these at the cost I get them for.
If u got the ghost motors and you get sick of rattling or you’ve already ruined them and you can pledge “I will not buy untested slide fitted aluminum 3D images again” you get a discount
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Nothing last forever…they can last for a long time… So…what is a reasonable life of a hub motor? Are hub motors designed to be fixed down the road? Or are they one use items, but can be fixed like vacuum cleaners? We’ve seen Carvon give people the option to upgrade their older sets to lower kv. Will hubs be like that? How user fixable are they? Easy enough to slap together an esk8 but add tearing into a motor to service could be a big stretch for some.
A hub motor can last forever! Magnets don’t lose their strength for a very long time as long as they don’t get too hot and they make high heat magnets (which is definately worth getting in a hub motor and should be asked by a buyer what magnets are in it as it defines the continuous power before the motor gets damaged) and all the other parts other than the bearings in there… if you get good high temp wire,…forever
Pressed bearings u have to press the motor apart with a press to service and if it’s slide fit it’s much easier to service as it’ll fall apart and no pressing necessary, but if it’s all slide fittings on aluminum especially you might not have a shaft or housing that’s any good anymore and not worth servicing. You can’t fix a ruined shaft or housing but u can add retaining fluid on a damaged shaft or any fitting that isn’t too loose and that can be really good until it deteriorates from the heat and shock loads and that could be a couple months
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I have been involved in desigining & re-desigining hub motors since 2014. I have been involved in actual manufacturing & testing on actual protoype hub motors for well over two years. THIS IS ALL BEFORE HUMMIE BECAME A SO CALLED EXPERT IN THE FIELD
Before @Hummie even had a design, I was testing & refining prototypes, This was posted on instagram in March 2015 https://www.instagram.com/p/0zz3WMAW3I/?hl=en
Me testing hub motors in march 2015
Followed by this on isntagram, in Sep 2015 https://www.instagram.com/p/7KbaW_AWyF/?taken-by=enertionboards&hl=en
Also, I had been working on the design for securly mounting hub motors onto hangers, posted this in Sep 2015 https://www.instagram.com/p/7wBt4vAWyq/?hl=en
For some reason @Hummie is still trying to work out how to prevent axles from snapping & it’s 2017… http://tppsf.com/failure-analysis/images/6364.jpg
I kept on doing research, buying & testing hub motors from anyone making them, this is posted Nov 2015 https://www.instagram.com/p/9-htg4AW2f/?taken-by=enertionboards&hl=en
MOSTLY THEY WERE ALL PRETTY SHIT & LOTS MORE WORK WAS NEEDED - IT TOOK TIME
However, I didn’t stop, I continued my research, I got hub motors of different sizes to test & study… Posted March 2016 https://www.instagram.com/p/BCozoNfAWxC/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/p/BFdn7BZAW-9/?taken-by=enertionboards&hl=en
More & more & More testing, posted July 2016 https://www.instagram.com/p/BHZAbH4gYW2/?taken-by=enertionboards&hl=en
Posted November 2016 https://www.instagram.com/p/BNNw9P0gEDI/?taken-by=enertionboards&hl=en
I’ve spent thousands of hours & thousands of dollars on engineering, molds, samples etc etc… I have also done hours & hours of testing on many differnt designs from others… It has not been cheap & it has not been easy…
You really can’t help spreading hate all over this forum… It’s pretty sad man, everything you say is laced with spite & jealousy, you really should stop, it’s ruining your credibility.
Just in case anyone forgets, we offer a 12 months warranty against manufacturing faults.
We also offer this:
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ALSO, if anyone is wondering, it is possible to calculate bearing life…
just a couple posts back you said you’ve tested lots of hub motors and they were all mechanically fine and now “they were all pretty shit”? I think you’ll say anything. That video you posted of you riding on those motors is a blast from the past! you are proud to be involved in those Jacob motors, version 6 supposedly, that many of us bought and showed to be totally unridable and lots of us lost our money. Infact you can hear the rubbing of those crap motors in that video you just posted above!!! click click click. They all went out to us with so much confirmation of legitimacy. They were the reason I started making motors!
The saddest thing is how people eat it up. just browsing your site trying to find out the mysteries of the raptor, pushing on info links for the separate parts it’s all empty info. the magnets optimized for torque, and the special steel, and super bearings or whatever you’re calling them. the empty wording goes on and on but people dont know and you’re not going to say.
Youre the big winner in a risky game with your year warranty. With what must certainly be an aluminum housing for that big bearing, and what must all be slide fittings …I dont think the patent pending heat removal is going to mater.
are you going to tell us if its aluminum or if it’s slide fitting or just keep posting allusions to higher science? you dont need high science. slide or press? aluminum or not? its really that simple
im curious how the tire stays on too. there are all those little screws for it in the exploded view but not on real pics.
AND WE AREN’T TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW LONG BEARINGS WILL LAST. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. HOW LONG WILL THE SHAFT AND HOUSING LAST
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Yes, in 2015, 2 years ago… they were shit, hence i never sold them, lots of issues… etc etc
It’s now 2017, lots of testing & lots of R&D has been done and now we are seeing products that work…
Carvon, Inboard, Enertion, Mellow, etc etc…
You are still stuck in 2015 because you have zero budget for R&D, that’s because you sold your products at near cost price… which was a really bad idea which ultimately cost both you & Jacob the chance to have a very viable business. Developing new products is very expensive!
So please, don’t try to drag legitimate businesses down with you because you haven’t made any progress…
Go back to the drawing board, make a proper business plan, rethink your tolerance stack-up’s, work closer with your manufacturing partners & stop making up excuses.
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no excuses here. I guess that’s your excuse for an answer to questions about what youre selling.
Research & Development is not simply browsing competitors websites for information so you can use their work to help solve your problems, go out there & buy some products, try different designs, do the work mate…
the only reason Enertion exists today is because I have worked my fucking arse off & spent every last dollar i have made trying to build better products…
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I dont have any problems though. You dont even have something out and it has all the problems i found last year! It’s your forum and of course you would love to control the perception of what you sell, but it’s ,somewhat…a public forum (pour a drip for Devin) and I spent a year figuring out why I wouldn’t want to do what you’re selling and I’ve explained why.
and I’ve been put in a holding pattern on the site for a bit. I guess trying to simmer me down. To me this is what I spent a year figuring out, that a hub motor needs a better mechanical design. I tell the world openly, but onloop you’ve seemed to go “all in” on your hub motors and now it must succeed. I’ll wait to see if this is an information forum so we can all learn and get better stuff or a marketing platform. I’m obviously not very money driven and in my mind just told everyone the most important detail on making a hub motor. I’m a forum junky. I like to tell my stuff. I like to work with others with the same interests. I like to write. You should’ve listened to me all along as I told of this problem long ago.
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When is it a ‘problem’ ?
How many KM should the hub last?
Before this is answered who cares about how many KM it actually lasts?
If the hub dies after 20 000 km the design might be flawed for other purposes, but not for skateboarding.
In my opinion if the hubs survive over 10 000 km they’re good enough. If people make more KM’s in one/two years the seller should help out and there isn’t any problem.
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