Currently I don’t have VESC anywhere on my website, but I may just put it everywhere because this royally pisses me off.
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The funny part is, I did a search last night and 300k hits of vesc and I’m sure half or more are phrase hits and a quarter of that being post and a 5-10% being product reference. I found 10 selling a esc under vesc and no trade mark. Thanks for the support guys.
And I would say if everyone used it in a manor that displeased a wanker, so be it.
He only saw my announcement on the forum.
I’m down for a vesc sell in. POWER TO THE VESC IMFRINGMENT MOVEMENT
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When I first started building my board / first started doing research, I found out I needed a vesc. Upon doing a bit more looking, it seemed to me the only real vesc out there was the $300+ vesc 6 sold by trampa. The extensive information / marketing threw me off as a newbie… and I wasn’t prepared to pay almost $700 for just the speed controllers. So I asked in the discord and was recommended to use the focbox. That’s when I realized and started digging some more to find out that vesc is an open source hardware design, and that $300+ for a vesc wasn’t my only option.
I think there are a small number of people (very small) who might not do as much digging as me who might end up buying vesc 6 from trampa if all the marketing / specs / etc on the page dont overwhelm them as a newbie. I think most people will keep digging a bit for something appearing more simple to use, like the focbox, even if it’s essentially the same thing: a vesc.
And now I know, even if I wanted a hardware v6 ESC, there are other cheaper options there too. Thanks forums.
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I just hope the seller of alternatives don’t stop to put VESC in the info/threads so it’s possible to find them when searching. This is trampas main goal and I hope as many as possible mess that up. It’s fucked up that he comes in to skim the profit of a open source project like vesc that was developed and tested by the community.
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Thanks guys. I knew this guy would be a problem almost 2 years ago durring a conversation we had with them about their over priced products. I’m going to have a talk with my brother about it. I agree with with the community on this. I know pat at Lacroix chimed in on the ESCape thread when Frank was bent on the box looking like a box thing. I’ll shoot him a pm. But I know those dudes are crazy busy. Anyway Not over.
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The VESC aka Vedder ESC has been developed by Benjamin Vedder alone, not the community. 99.5% of the work is in the code, which is Open Source thx to Benjamins ethos to code sharing.
Without the tremendous amount of effort he put into the coding, no ESC that is based on his work would spin a motor a quarter turn. It is his baby and he can do with it what ever he likes. It’s probably fair enough that he owns the rights to the name of the project. That doesn’t hinder anyone to make and sell VESC-Based hardware in any future.
On top of that the TM policies are pretty fair, based on the Linux TM policies. Most OS-Projects own the TM for the Project name, and a lot of them derive profits from service or hardware sales. That is not skimming, it is essential for project survival. No cash, no future.
We should’ve just called them BESC instead (Benjamin ESC). I mean Frank is probably thinking about stabbing Vedder in the back and renaming it FESC because of his god damn ego
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But the reason it’s a success is because of the community. After all , something’s not a success if not for people actilvly using it no? Nor should you disregard the software made my folks like @Ackmaniac that contributes to people choosing the VESC.
It’s obvious that the honest reason you guys are so persistent about this is because you want the mere mention/recommendation of VESC to lead to the buy of your overpriced VESC , and I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys were to then push the narrative to group all other ESC that aren’t named VESC together , even if derived from the VESC, as Chinese copies/lesser.
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No one denies what he has done or doing. And so far no one has quoted some large monitory loss because someone advertised a product based off his work using a acronym that basically says he did it. Doesn’t the V stand for Vedder? I’m sure he doesn’t throw open the books on his donations for all to see. I know people donate. I have a filling he is doing ok in cash department as well as trampa. So to cry money. Really is like crying wolf. And simply because I didn’t word or arrang the description correctly and using VESC®. At least that’s what I’m getting from terms of use on Vedder site. Look out the knife is in the left hand. FESC, sound like a flea dip
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No, the funniest part is that frank and trampa don’t even own the trademark. They only do this to try to drive up trampa profits on their overpriced stuff. If this was the actual designer and copyright owner it might be a little different.
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Lol, I so enjoy these threads about the shape of a box and the use of a letter…
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Partly true, but people are using it because the software is better than anything else out there. The success is based on dam hard work, done in thousands of hours after work by a guy in Sweden. Without that effort most e-boards would not perform half as good as they do today, due to lack of alternatives in OS- software code which is OS till today.
OS means you can use and remix the code, not necessarily the project identity. It is about sharing the code and technology, allowing individuals and companies to use and modify the code. The VESC-Project is not a mass movement from coders who share the project development among them, using a shared project identity. If VESC would be non protected, everyone could clone Benjamins code and publish it, using the same naming. That would get well confusing for anyone wanting to download the software in future. Which is the original then? Which is the one Benjamin Vedder is behind? Which VESC domain would be the original source, linking into Benjamins server? How the hell on earth would you want to control misuse of project identity in future without having the rights to the name? Why do the majority of OS-Projects have Trademarked their brand? Because it is necessary to avoid confusion. That is the purpose of a TM, nothing else. In consequence you will find trademark policies on any major OS-Project website. And they all have a mail address allowing to report TM-violations. So does the VESC-Project. It is common practice in the OS-World and the entire industry. If all of the projects do that, why should the privately run VESC-Project not be allowed to do the same?
For the ones wanting some statistics, fresh from the system:
Donations in April: 165€ 100% of that from individuals, derived from 10 individual software orders in total. Total new downloads in April: 345 (This excludes software updates from previous orders)
Donations from ESC manufacturers, vendors etc: 0€
If you think hardware prices should purely consider manufacturing cost + a little profit, you forget development costs, which Benjamin shouldered all alone in the past. We are talking thousands of hours of unpaid work that allowed manufacturers to make and sell hardware and allowed users to ride their boards with a nice controller. If you ask Benjamin what he thinks a VESC should cost, you will be glad about our pricing.
Frank
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Makes sense. In your opinion, what would be the best way for manufacturers of ESCs based off VESC to indicate that to customers? As a consumer, I know I don’t just want any old ESC, but something based on the VESC.
Something along the lines of “Based off of the VESC” or “Hardware and software deprived from the VESC”?
Thanks for your thoughts.
I can’t really comment on the technicalities of developing the VESC, the software, etc… as that’s not my area of expertise, but I really don’t see how this is constantly an issue being argued over. Nobody is denying that BV dedicated a significant amount of time and probably money in the creation of this product. HOWEVER, he gave up his right to monetary compensation for this the moment he made it Open Sourced. Bill Gates didn’t create a bunch of software, make it open source, and then make a ton of money off of it did he? That’s the whole point of open sourced IP. Regardless of how little people decide to contribute to him, raising all these side issues after the fact, and pretending like your main purpose in these matters is altruism… It doesn’t matter. That’s a cold hard fact. If BV needed to make some money from this he simply could have just NOT made it open sourced. End of discussion.
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Too be clear, I’m NOT saying that TM copyrights shouldn’t be followed or enforced, but making these arguments and sending out letters too other manufacturers as if this is the real issue is so transparently not the real reason. Saying it’s about protecting consumers from ‘being confused’ is so off the mark it’s laughable.
But it’s not your trademark @trampa it’s Benjamin’s … maybe …
Nobody has EVER actually shown a trademark.
So really this is all hot air.
Until Benjamin comes in and says this is trademarked by me, here is a link to the trademark, this is all trampa marketing jive. It’s not complicated.
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People need to start reading the TM policies with some care. They aim to strike a fair balance. Of course interests vary. Manufacturers have certain interests, the software developer has certain interests, consumer have certain interest.
It is nor always easy to match those interests since they can partly collide.
This is a quote from the policies:
Mr. Vedder Trademark Usage Guidelines Trademarks are used to provide assurance to the community of consistency with respect to the quality of products or services with which the mark is associated. This policy attempts to strike the proper balance between two competing interests: the need of Mr. Vedder to ensure that his trademarks remain reliable indicators of the qualities that they have been created to preserve and the need of Mr. Vedder to ensure that community members are able to discuss the projects with which Mr. Vedder is associated and to accurately describe the relationship between Mr. Vedder and the products and services offered by others.
It is not the aim to cut everyone of from using the project name. The aim is to strike a balance that works for everyone. Users want to be able to identify the original source while the source wants to be clearly identifiable in any future. Projects grow organically and want to stay clearly identifiable in any future. So the only way forward is to get the TM and balance things out, setting up policies. This is what happened.
Making and selling hardware I would advise to give the product a unique identifier, offsetting it from the competition while describing it a based on, or compatible with. Like a computer, tablet or smartphone, showing it runs or can run Android, Linux, windows etc. Customers then know what to expect. You would need to put some effort into marketing, showing USPs and build up your reputation from there. That is common practice, selling hardware and in your very own interest anyway. Without brand / product awareness you can’t offset your products in the market.
In future we will hopefully see more different designs. They can’t all be called the same. Customers want to be able to differentiate product a from product b, especially if quality varies a lot.
That’s not trampa’s stuff and you still neglected to show an actual trademark.
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I think the point here is that people DON’T want a difference from product A to product B when it comes to the VESC precisely because it is a VESC and many only know that’s considered the best ESC. When we can’t even be sure of whether one is based off the VESC project or not because of these silly naming issues, that is what becomes a problem FOR THE CONSUMER.
Edit:
Yes, I realize the TM issue is not ‘silly’… That’s not the point here though…
You can search TMs online.
TMview for example: type VESC into search.
Registered in EU, USA, AU, Russia. Filed in HK, China, Israel, Switzerland, Korea.
Benjamin put a statement up his Forum in 2017. In addition to that he uploaded TM policies on the VESC-Project.com Website (bottom of page).
Do you honestly think someone puts that much effort into Trademarking, if he doesn’t find it necessary?
With regards to HW-designs: