Open Source software and hardware. Your rights and obilgations

If you guy wonder what the origin of the VESC is, here is the link to the original thread in endless-sphere : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=63540&hilit=vesc

Fun Fact:. 1- The name VESC wasn’t use by Vedder until version 4.6. 2- All the Master builder from this forum look like noobs. 3- @psychotiller think that a 200$ esc is not that bad, and was buying stuff from @torqueboards

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To play devils advocate here the whole OS could have been locked up as proprietry code by now and ohlins & focboxes et al left on vesc 4.10 firmware, instead the vesc supports all the non-VESC clones, in saying that the VESC tool from vedder did eat a new focbox doing motor detection the other day, maybe it has the wrong MAC address :joy:

It would actually be better if the firmware and software was proprietary. Then there would be more people coming out with alternative firmware and software and the VESC ™ would disappear leaving a better ESC for skateboards in the market.

I was comparing price from the castle 8s escs I was using at the time…not sure what your point is about me buying stuff from Torque.

There wasn’t any kind of point… But since @longhairedboy wasn’t around at that time, I couldn’t found any good mom joke, so that the second best I could find :sweat_smile: :sweat:

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It will always be like that, since the code is GPLed. In consequence derived works also need to be GPLed and available to the public. This will be handled without compromise. And as some may have seen, the mobile versions are currently coded, so that APPs can be written that can interact with the Hardware seamless.

I think that the FOCBOX is the best proof that a TM is no hurdle to sell hardware, especially not after applying very relaxed TM policies, derived from the Linux policies.

Code is open, hardware will follow soon, fair use of TM is granted.

I have the feeling some people look to deep into a given horses maul.

Frank

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No matter what you say, youre just digging your own hole. Dont be surprised when you have a low low amount of sales…

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like there was so much competition before as everybody was using hobbyking/maytech etc. rc type of ESCs?

No, it’s different now. You got people like @Ackmaniac and @evoheyax that have developed software and 3rd party firmware for the VESC that were kinda tossed aside when Trampa came on the scene.

There are tons others but I don’t wanna do a population study. I want to show that there other people that have made contributions that could make more if given the opportunity and a chance if reward.

This group/hobby/subculture (whatever) is so much more now than it was a year ago and massively more than it was just 2 years ago. My feeling is that Trampa is trying to cash in on that by stifling advancement for sake of profit. That bothers me a great deal, I don’t like being used and manipulated especially for profit.

More importantly it’s bad for users, developers and manufacturers and vendors.

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I am still new to this scene.

But to get it right - Trampa has only secured the brand for B.V. - the code and hardware design will still be OS.

Production of hardware is not easy as we see with all those esk8 boards from China. There is lots of possibility to fail, do a costly mistake - having to garantee to customer etc. or payback.

Now Trampa sells the VESC V6 more expensive than other v4 hardware manufactures - which nearly all are copy cats with slightly improved designs. But as I understood Vedder wants to stay OS and also publish the v6 hardware design, or he maybe has already.

Right?

So its the same as Mozilla or better the Linux kernel lead by this other “nice humble” guy from Finnland.

And if the v6 hardware designs are also becoming OS - than there are options for like a focbox v2 (vesc v6 based) etc.

I understood that it was a surprise as Trampa secured the brand and all other manufactures had to change their product name.

But on the other side - was that not a great way to distinguish their products from crappy china copies using the same name by setting up their own product name? Like ENERTION with his nice focbox?

And now to your point of having more great developers in the scene like @Ackmaniac or @evoheyax. Would they have designed a ESC all alone? They are now able to contribute, because there was a code base already present. So everybody here is becoming a giant standing on shoulders of others.

If there are complains about Mr. Vedder not pulling their code changes, than for my understanding its Mr. Vedders “fault” like Linus Torvalds, who is pissing off so many kernel developers.

This is why I am so confused about all the emotions arising here on this thread / topic.

Only this morning I got aware of the other firmware beeing around made by @Ackmaniac - that one sounds just awesome!

So why is B.V. “blocking” such a contributor to the overall project?

You wrote “3rd party firmware for the VESC that were kinda tossed aside when…” What do I need to read to understand - if I am wrong in my impression / view of reading this forum for 3 weeks now?

Cheers from Hamburg/Germany

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And all the implications that contains. The main ones being that all the other VESC vendors had to spend time and money to change the name and PCB characteristics to comply with, and lets be clear, Frank at Trampa’s, demands. BV hasn’t made these demands, Frank has either on his own or with BV’s blessing (who knows).

Absolutely correct, but if think the designs cant be duplicated in China then you need to read more about what has happened with Maytech and some of the other manufacturers and their total disregard for copyrights. Al this TM of Trampas has done is make more difficult for vendors outside of China.

At 3 or 4 times the cost of manufacturing, that’s called price gouging. The current assumption is that it will stay OS and the hardware designs will be published but to this point they have not. There are some copies floating around of the V6 hardware design but BV nor Trampa have actually released them for others to manufacture, at least that’s my understanding.

These used to be called a VESC, Frank locked that down. WIth his recent history I honestly expect him to attempt to block the manufacture of V4 designs as well.

Maybe, maybe not. What it has secured is the death of the VESC. This is the beginning of the end. The end result will be BV not making any money, Frank having screwed the entire community for profit and then loosing his ass. Its just bad decision making all around.

Once again…maybe, maybe not. We will never know because Frank and BV have essentially ignored them while coopting their designs into the new V6 firmware.

It is, works flawlessly and props to @Ackmaniac for making a mediocre product badass.

Dude, I don’t even know where to start. Search for topics that contain keywords like VESC6, Frank, Trampa, Trademark, Copyright, etc.

Let me be clear on this. My issue is that I simply cannot watch profit mongering and the theft of ideas and not say anything. I grew up in small business home, my dad had a shoe store for 38 years. My mom ran a arts and craft store. Companies like Wal-Mart and Costco have made small businesses a thing of the past, other than service related businesses, by using hostile buying and selling practices, straight up extortion and lawyering up to cost people massive legal fees if they choose t fight…exactly what Frank is doing.

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Thanks @mmaner for taking the time to answer a newbee in such a detail.

Well, I feel you - as beeing a business owner myself who failed big in 2001 as the “New Economy” blew up. Became millionaire on paper and 16 months later went bankrupt with a real dept of EUR -500.000 at the age of 28.

And I am still fighting my way back with my new business - where the big guys (Deutsche Telekom) like to copy me ideas and others did 100% copy cats of my product even incl. my text mispelling on their website.

But to get back to the topic.

OK - there was effort to be done. Let’s be honest here - finding a new product name and change it on a website is not a big deal. The two VESCs v4.12 I bought from Faraday here in germany two weeks ago do look as do the ones from maytech etc.

If I understood correctly lots of people are unhappy with the v4 hardware design as it like to blow up. Those DRVs, the black chips, dont like ampere. I read a post from @onloop that this design had to change and he took the challenge. I got so scared while reading all those blew up posts that I ordered two focboxes from France and another two from ENERTION directly in that black whatevery sale.

So everybody was complaining - to me it looks like Trampa got the message transported to B.V. to improve and that they were willing to support him. I guess with time and money for the development of v6 (what happpend to v5 btw?) I just bought the €20 Version of the VESC-Tool via PayPal and was happy to see that the money went directly to B.V. And my order number is 1341 - so let me do the simple math 1341 x EUR 26.820 for B.V. if all bought at EUR 20 for working for two years.

He lives in Sweden - and thats much more expensive as Germany.

Dunno how he survives - but Vesc-Tools sales cant be it.

Sure that VESC v6 price is no bargain compared to ca. EUR140 I paid for each FocBox from the certified importer from France. But someone had to pay the development of the new v6 hardware and this Vesc-Tool - somewhere I read about two years did it took B.V…

Than you got a design - need to start production in maybe 500 pcs. to start with. All money up front - but I am sure there where lots of mistakes in the first revision, and the second etc. Thats all money out of the window, as we call it here in germany. Trampa is in the UK - its f**king expensive over there - and they are still in the EU. Let’s cut this down - all that add’s up.

And a lot of people here in the forum report that B.V. did not got lots of bonuses from other manufactures.

Thats a feeling, an emotion. Emotions are great while in bed with our girls. But I did not came across of messages of Frank stateing this.

Death of the VESC - why? Focbox sold awesome, more than 500 orders did ENERTION get on that BlackWTF thing weekend. I will be waiting weeks until my Focboxes arrive in germany plus customs.

Still if B.V. does not close the project to private source - all stays the same. Even if he does - the source is public - it stays public. The Vesc-Tools SRC must be still public otherwise how should @Ackmaniac develop his version of the tool.

Bad decisions? Because Trampa seems to kinda help B.V. to manage himself? That Frank always talks about contributing - and all code is freely around. The VESC has its TM and is save against Chinas-copy-cats incl. bad quality.

Upstairs in my browser there is an ad from @onloop “Certified FOCBOX Suppliers” . Why do the other manufactures do “certify” their VESC at B.V. - so they all stay together. Like all the Linux Distos etc. do. That would make all stronger.

But the new V6 firmware is also free to everybody, even those first alternative v6 designs - I think I saw that firemware in the Vesc-Tool I downloaded - hardware version 60 i guess. So until there is the focbox v2 (aka vesc6) I will try @Ackmaniac firmware for my FocBox.

To get to an end, we got the 10th here in germany already 0:35 o’clock.

To me it sounds like “feeling hurt” - thats OK! But why not wait and see how B.V. will drive the future.

Thats all like in the Linux world when systemd came around. etc. etc. Normal OS wars - but nobody dieds.

Even @onloop wrote somewhere that he is f**king happy not to be DIY anymore - so ENERTION came from DIY grew up - got lots of hard knocks / shitstorm from the community - but that guys does stay up again and rides the chines lion and made an awesome Raptor 2.

Lets hope he cashes in a lot $$$, so he has funding for the Raptor 3 and can provide for his family forever. And we get the focbox v2.

Sorry, that became a long response … wanted to work on my build …

PS: See those Vesc’s on the left - they got some parts made to high - so they dont fit into that awesome cnc box! :frowning:

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P.S. From technical side vesc6 is not a big difference from vesc4… The changed DRV chip because previous one was discontinued and some minor changes which you can make in a day… I went with own design of board getting rid of DRV and etc and done everything in two evenings so I don’t know what kind of work they are talking about. From the software side, nothing much is different between 4 and 6 just some flags in the source code which defines which pin does what and what kind of DRV is used that’s all whats done.

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Hardware is completely generic all ESC looks the same just different components which does the same thing. The whole thing is just software which idea was ripped from existing algorithm from big giants…

I hate that now they want to monopolize “they” invention which is just thrown a bunch of things together as 2 years developed project…

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Also, the whole control algorithm is just converted math formulas to code that’s all it’s done.

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You can pick TI microprocessor, take TI InstaSpin library define some inputs outputs and damn you have the same FOC running.

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Here you go reference design for the same stm32 http://www.st.com/en/embedded-software/stsw-stm32100.html

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I’m just gonna hit the high points, about to go to dinner.

No sir, that’s a guess. An educated guess based on past behavior. Big difference.

That’s my point. Understand the FocBox is not a VESC. @onloop was forced to change the name, as we’re countless others. In fact, there is no VESC 4 in production. That’s because if Frank. [quote=“rene, post:113, topic:40375”] Even if he does - the source is public - it stays public [/quote]

The VESC 4 is public, the VESC 6 absolutely is not.

That’s pretty naive, you think Frank is only helping BV and not himself?

It’s not hurt, it’s anger and disgust. What Frank has done is underhanded and driven by profit. Ben has taken features he never used before from 3rd party developers and incorporated then into the VESC 6 without so much as a thank you and then ignores their continued contributions.

I hope you see past the curtain on this…

You should develop it, like I said PM me and we can figure out how to get you funded.

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i want in💰… puwease!

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