News to the Name VESC

General Discussion
326

Feel like we are going in circles… but my last comment on the “trampa is screwing us” theme.

Ben is a smart guy. An adult. Capable of making his own decisions. If he didn’t reach out to you personally to discuss this - so what? Why would he need to check in with you?! He made a choice to partner with Trampa. Again- so what? If you meet someone and have similar passions/interests and just sync up - you want to work with them! Seriously - who is anyone besides Ben to say who he should or shouldn’t work with?

And anyone can continue to make a VESC 4.xx (until v6 is reference is released OS) - they simply need to rename it to their own “brand” and “based on VESC™ by Benjamin Vedder”. Seems pretty reasonable.

And let’s think why he needed to go this route… Besides the shady websites VESC.xx.xx , there’s also the Maytech POS VESC that is touting “Benjamin Vedder VESC!”. That’s BS. And looking at banggood it’s not appreciably cheaper than a more reputable seller like Enertion/DIYes/Chaka. Folks will buy and have issues and think VESC is junk. This does reflect on Ben. I totally understand him wanting to stop this and protect his name and invention’s reputation.

And to be greedy - if this partnership and help from Trampa helped speed up development and release of v6 - SWEET! I agree it’s at a premium right now - but it should come down in price with some competition. Reference designs - called whatever - still like “electro gogo” - will be soon available from folks you likely trust like @Chaka and Enertion. W/ their own “brand” but running a reference or remixed hardware design. Perhaps Ben will have some sort of licensing option for those larger volume manufacturers to label them still as VESC. LIkely at some cost (justifiably so to recompense Ben’s hard work), but if you want it some $ should go to ben - even if “electro gogo”.

@Trampa - my only question w/ those remixed hardware or straight reference design - will we all be able to use the new VESC tool? That looks so much better than the old BLDC tool.

If you can’t see that Ben’s work has been capitalized on by others - offering some sub-par “VESC”'s, and making associations as if they were w/ Ben w/o any compensation to ben - i think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Name your VESC whatever you want! We’ll find it if it works well or is a value vs the Trampa offering. Maybe rename it to: “based on VESC™ by Benjamin Vedder”

If you truly feel you helped “create” the VESC by reporting bugs and minor feedback like that - i think you are overvaluing your input. Look at the software as that is doing the heavy lifting, not the hardware. Now some folks like @chaka, DIYes, Enertion, and @Ackmaniac have definitely helped with moving it forward - by offering effectively their own variant of VESC (VESC-X, Direct FED from chaka) and custom firmware from @Ackmaniac! Pretty great contributions, but look at it from a total percentage of the effort by Ben - and still using the software config tool BLDC and now VESC tool… a contribution for sure, but nothing compared to the effort from Ben.

Get un-butthurt about Ben wanting to protect his reputation and IP. He’s chosen who he wants to work with on the next version. I don’t know @Trampa from adam… but i appreciate the time/effort/money he’s invested to help Ben. Didn’t seem like anyone else was stepping up and helping support him to make v6 happen. Did he “buy” the VESC - no. It still belongs to Ben and not Trampa. Yes Trampa is likely recouping some $ w/ v6 prices. I think that’s reasonable, and we always have the option to continue buying 4.xx VESCs elsewhere. And ultimately when the reference v6 is released i’m looking forward to seeing how folks re-mix or produce it and how it compares.

it’s a polarizing topic - i’m sure several disagree. I do feel like Frank has done an admirable job of at least communicating and being receptive here, while not losing his cool from some pretty harsh criticism. Talking in circles a bit - sure but you can only answer the same question the same time before it’s a bit repetitive.

Until this is fully released we’re speculating and getting worked up about some things that aren’t known yet. Licensing costs - software (new VESC tool) availability and free or cost?, and reference design details. I’m hoping it’s like 4.12 currently w/ the PCB’s that folks can re-flow themselves, and then figure out heatsinks to make it work for their expected need…

I’ll leave it at that for now and try to avoid getting pulled in again. My 2 pence…

1 Like
327

Good write up mate! No locks no nothing BTW. Fully OS!

Vesc-Tool and Vesc-six would not have happened without Ben and Frank banging on it. It was simply to much work to be dealt with by one person after work. So Benjamin did what he could and I did what I could. Two brains banging on stuff also generates inspiration and it helps to push each other to another level. It was fruitful so far.

There is a good portion of Trampa in the stuff. Two brains simply output more ideas. It’s good that my windings work a bit differently than Benjamins. That helps to think into more different directions. It wasn’t achieved by throwing cash on the table. It wad achieved by working hard and with endurance.

Benjamin and I share the same quality ethos and perfectionism. Ben is probably a bit more crazy than I am, quality wise.

In the end everyone will love to make business on selling the new stuff that would not have existed without the steps that have been taken. No VESC SIX, no VESC-Tool.

Everything will get served on a polished silver plate, ready to be eaten. It would be nice to leave some food for Benjamin! I have the fealing that a lot of vendors and manufacturers are a bit frustrated because now they can’t have it all anymore - the R&D, the Soft and hardware plus the Vedder brand. I think its fair to leave him the brand. He can do with the brand whatever he wants. One decision was to output hardware with us under that brand. Probably because we both worked hard on the stuff. Got it?

Frank

328

You have a good eye to see things! Things were not balanced correctly. No one needs to send donations btw. But exploiting the project name and not shooting anything back is a bit funny in my eyes. I have the feeling the community thinks it own the project, so there is no need for kickbacks. Some few gave, the majority took what it could get, that is the sad truth. Most didn’t even send a card for Christmas. Hallelujah! The past is past now. Time for a restart. Some probably didn’t realize that something was funny. I can understand that, we are all hyped by e-boarding and male. Please rethink your position in future. Drop some R&D on top and forward it to Benjamin. If you do so, something will be given back to you. In the end its a win win thing. Better funding, better and more products, better for sales, better for the customer, better for the community, bigger community, more sales.

Frank

329

…and Frank makes a ton of money at the expense of every other builder out there who has been building quality VESCs and donating the BV for years.

So yeah, the bullshit keeps coming.

330

…every other builder out there who has been building quality VESCs and donating the BV for years is a very overlookable group you can fit in a VW-Polo.

Frank

331

If you truly feel you helped “create” the VESC by reporting bugs and minor feedback like that - i think you are overvaluing your input

Right on @sl33py

@mmaner and who has been donating to Ben? obviously it wasn’t sustainable living on goodwill donations from the handful of vendors who actually donated. I bet you would cry foul and spruke how “Ben sold out” if he decided to go work for boosted/evolve or a future electric vehicle company.

Ben’s decision to work with whom he wants. Think about it. He’s a grown man for fucks sake. Trampa hasn’t seriously got him on their evil island volcano lair dangling his feet into the pit to make him sign over all his intellectual property from now til hell freezes over - I just made that shit up. Thats how I deal with bullshit fake news.

Now for the weather. Unseasonably cold in hell today with a 90% chance of precipitation…

2 Likes
332

This thread is pretty out of control with some of bashing towards Trampa, and they seem to take it a lot better than others have in the past.

This is how I see it put simply: Too much shit was being made and having the same name VESC put on it. All this does is make the uninformed user buy the crap which is also likely not to result in any form of donation to Ben V. at all because it’s either the cheaper option or the most spoken about option.

Any of the vendors complaining they have to change the name as a result I challenge the following: Talk to ben about licensing Show that you have actually donated regularly to Ben in the past Your product is up to standard

Like Frank said, you could easily fit those that contribute to ben financially in a small car. Those that already have, that I know of that also have high standard hardware are likely to easily obtain a license from him to continue using the VESC name.

Lastly I’d like to know why this has become an issue now and not when it was first discussed (that I saw) quite some time ago in the VESC6 thread?

3 Likes
333

I never said “I” did, but if you think people like @ackerozene, @evoheyax, @torqueboards, @onloop, @chaka, @oriol360, etc. have not then I think you undervaluing others input.

I’ll just refer you to the list above.[quote=“Jebe, post:331, topic:23017”] Ben’s decision to work with whom he wants. Think about it. He’s a grown man for fucks sake. Trampa hasn’t seriously got him on their evil island volcano lair dangling his feet into the pit to make him sign over all his intellectual property from now til hell freezes over [/quote]

Its absolutely BV’s decision to work with who he wants. That’s never been the issue. The issue is that Frank did this all in secret cost other builders, who have been in this a lot longer than he has, a lot of money and doesn’t care. It’s all about money to him, I think that is bad for all of us.

I have simply asked 2 questions that Frank continues to be unable to answer, that’s should tell everyone everything they need to know.

I just want everyone to look at this thread, think about the ramifications of this action. This is the moment when your hobby/passion/whatever gets hijacked. This is the moment when you can actually say something about the way greed turns a community upside down and perverts it for the sake of profit…right now.

All this passivity in the face of indisputable evidence of greed and bad business practices, I say shame on you, good little consumers that you are. Some of you see, some of you choose not too. I have never maid a single cent of this thing we call powered skateboards, eskate, or esk8, whatever you want to call it, I do it because I love it. I’ve done all I can to try open your eyes to type of person that Frank is, regardless I am done, its taken the fun out of this for me.

2 Likes
334

I’m a little disgusted at all the bureaucracy that’s happening, and I find the way Frank represents trampa is terrible as evident in the recent posts.

2 Likes
335

[quote=“mmaner, post:333, topic:23017”] I have simply asked 2 questions that Frank continues to be unable to answer, that’s should tell everyone everything they need to know.

What does this action that YOU are taking do for the community & what do you hope to achieve?Why was this action taken in the first place, what was the problem that existed that you are uniquely qualified to resolve?[/quote]

I’m not @Trampa, but i do see a couple really solid issues that were there, and it seems like Frank stepped up to help.

  1. What does this action do for the community - speed up release of v6 and make it available now vs vaporware (if you’ve been following since 4.12 - v5 - v6 it was perpetually “soon!”). Ben is only one guy and doing it in his spare time is shown with delays and every video and forum update was just time taken away from building/testing v6.

  2. Why was this action taken - BECAUSE BEN NEEDED THE HELP. Again he chose this, he was not and should not be expected to “check in” with the forum before he decides what to do with his IP. The problem was clearly that everyone was taking VESC and Ben’s name and using it to sell VESCs. Some disreputable folks in particular took pains to appear as if they were Ben, and some sold VESC’s that are clearly sub-par. Impacting Ben’s hardware/software credibility and reputation. Trampa looks to have helped with sorting out a likely convoluted process to get his tm, connected him with resources to make that happen, and helped offset costs to travel to do this, and free up his time to focus on building the new v6 and more importantly VESC tool (have you seen how much better it will be!?). Resources and help seem to be the easiest answer.

[quote=“mmaner, post:333, topic:23017”] I just want everyone to look at this thread, think about the ramifications of this action. This is the moment when your hobby/passion/whatever gets hijacked. This is the moment when you can actually say something about the way greed turns a community upside down and perverts it for the sake of profit…right now.[/quote]

Agreed! Folks were selling on Ben’s name and his reputation without helping him fund or move v6 forward. a TM seems a logical protection from this abusive greed by everyone who isn’t Ben. Capitalism/greed - call it what you want. I agree some vendors and repair folks are likely in a pinch. BUT there looks to be a clear process to keep doing what they are doing - build your 4.1x VESC w/ your own name, until v6 reference is released and do the same. We’ll find the good ones and support them - hopefully increasing competition w/ Trampa’s more expensive offering. Ben has always seemed a reasonable guy, so if you have a VESC named solution - chat with him! I’m sure you’ll work something out reasonably.

Seriously?! I get your passion, but this seems a bit over-the-top. An Electric Speed Controller has taken the fun out of one of your loves? How sad. Use another ESC and go RIDE FFS! Do you have a similar reaction when your favorite restaurant’s desert is gone and you have to pick another - never going back to that “horrible restaurant!” again?

Again the frustration with the evil Frank, but Ben is a saint? He’s the authority here - he chose this path. And for some pretty compelling reasons it seems to me. He didn’t sell his IP to boosted or any other number of board makers - he’s just selling the early release through a buddy he likes working with. Still OS, and not stopping ANYONE from making a VESC with their own name on it and due credit to his project. Keep making your own VESC’s. Ollin already has, Enertion has, and i expect MEB, DIYes, and others to do this as it’s not that much of a hurdle to keep providing to the community.

What is wrong with making a couple bucks doing what you like. So everyone should offer repair and hardware for zero cost for their time? I sold spare anti-spark switches and made enough to get my first real reflow oven - does that make me a bad guy and less passionate about esk8? I think the biggest difference is i split profits with Ben to help fund his innovation - unlike a lot of others.

This thread is like a train-wreck. Cannot help but watch in fascination… Painful as it is, I keep getting pulled in.

Lastly - i respect you @mmaner. I’ve seen your contributions to the forum, and helping folks repeatedly. I respect your passion and point of view. I just disagree with the underlying sense of entitlement - that Ben should’ve gotten the community or builders “blessing” before doing what he wants, and that it’s evil to protect his name and reputation, let alone to setup a structure that gives enough $ back to him to help fund his passion and innovation moving forward.

I hope that helps some people see the flip side of the coin, in the absence of Ben commenting directly, and maybe moderates the “trampa is evil” theme. Don’t buy Trampa VESC 6 - wait for ref design and get it from your friendly vendor of choice! I still see it as a means to speed v6 release, and worth the premium. Can’t wait for my v6 betas to arrive and compare!

my .02 take it as you like.

3 Likes
336

That is correct, we are all interested in hearing what Frank says to say about this but he refuses. I think he is refusing because he knows the truth makes him look very bad.

I started to make this long reply explaining every point you made and why I feel it is incorrect, but I don’t think you care. It feels like you have sided with Frank for some reason and your interest is to shoot down anyone saying something that doesn’t flatter him.

Here are the facts.

  1. Trampa tells every US & European manufacturer that they can no longer sell the VESC as a VESC. This does not effect the Chinese Manufacturers, as there is very little enforcement or penalty restrictions regarding US/UK Copyrights and/or Trademarks.
  2. Trampa has the sole manufacturing rights & data for the VESC6, but has not released the VESC6 for sale but is still creating a situation where it is difficult, maybe impossible to purchase a VESC4 or 6, in the short term.
  3. All of this was done in secret.
  4. The vendors in this community have ALL donated money to BV, as near s I can tell. Saying the ‘people’ have not requires some numbers and facts to be a valid argument. The vendors that have not donated the BV are specifically chinese manufacturers, this action doesn’t do anything to hurt them.

If you can defend these points you need a career in politics. To me, it make Frank look like a greedy opportunist. The fact that he will not answer ANY questions regarding the VESC6 situation, further enforces that conclusion. Frankly if BV is supporting this, then he is at fault here as well.

Obviously no one is against profits, there wouldn’t be an industry centered on powered boards if there was. To say is just more rhetoric.

I’m just gonna call that more rhetoric, because this isn’t about me at all and that is obvious to any 1st grader on the planet. FFS. If you are happy watching the people that built this community be taken advantage of, then good luck to you.

Like I said, I’m done with this, i’ve done all I can and that apparently pisses people like you off. Who the hell knows why. Regardless have a good time, do what you do.

1 Like
337

If you want to run a successful business, greed needs to be an essential part. There’s nothing wrong with anyone trying to make as much money as possible off the Esk8 community and doing their best to out-do their competition.

338

Legislation is a fact that you can’t overlook. The Vesc-Project is growing up and stuff needs to get sorted better now than never. We are a small company mate, I have enough work on my desk already and sorting out all the stuff for the Project, that outputs all the software you guys need for riding your boards is no big fun. It’s endless effort on top of my daily job. If I count my hours spent + the costs for Project support, we got to sell a lot of VESCs to get a financial kickback. That’s our disadvantage btw. Other vendors didn’t have these cost and will not price them in. I’m not interested to go crazy on sales. It’s all hard work and we manly run the business because we love our products and the social network that is attached to the Brand, not for the money. Maybe that’s why Benjamin wants to output the HW through us. He is not money driven, we are not money driven. If you are after money, you better not sell a product like ours, causing many questions and needing lots of customer support. Selling custom boards is quite a lot of work. One product fits all, made in china is a lot more easy.

The software is OS BTW, so nothing will change really. There is no way to keep bureaucracy away from a OS-Project. Better stuff gets sorted out now, once and for forever, then messing around for forever.

It’s not a drastic change btw. It’s purely the brand that is in Benjamins hands now. If people don’t like that we helped to make things happen, fine. If people think we shouldn’t use the VESC brand for the official HW release, fine. It would be a bit funny though, naming the official HW release other than VESC. Someone has to make the official HW happening. If its not us, its someone else. It’s better someone like us, believe me. You have to trust Benjamins decision on that, he is not stupid.

There were exactly two options: Dropping the project, or doing it properly. The second option is probably better for the community but means some stuff changes slightly. Everyone believing things were just fine and should have continued as they were: That was no option for the VESC-Project. A project needs to be sustainable to be carried on. Without a TM and funding you can’t sustain a project and in consequence it will be dead one day. A dead VESC-Project is not in the interest of the community.

My advice: Look at both sides of the coin.

Frank

3 Likes
339

You should work for AT&T, Comcast or Nestle.

340

Ha ha ha! That’s just the nature of business. You can’t blame a business for trying to make money and protecting their assets.

341

Thanks to mmanner for his strong words! I’ve been thinking for a long time Whether I should post this I do not care if I have to change the name of the Vesc The people who bought me Know very well that they bought made in Germany Quality and not quantity I did not care the cost of the production. I had the choice germany = expensive or china = cheap I have looked for Germany and quality. I can remember that Trampa has bought Vesc from us Since I was told that I want too much money for a Vesc Trampa can build it for $ 50 We have told Trampa ok no problem try it And now there are only two options for Trampa Drop Or make it right. Yes to make it right All the Vesc sell prohibit vesc for sale Then I can cost $ 100 for a product Equal to three times as much Yes, then I do everything right Fill my pockets At the expense of the Community We paid for the Vesc 4.12 in the production 92.- € We sold the Vesc 4.12 for 149.- € We bakamen only the Elko board and the Vesc PCB without cable We have the Vesc 4.12 programmed and the cables soldered The whole lasted over a 1/2 hour We packed it and sent it to post office If I calculate everything at tax and costs Stayed for each Vesc 20.- € Of this, we gave BV 10% We put our cards on the table! We get for our work at Vesc And for responsibility 18.- € Yes, we have become rich And drive VW Polo

10 Likes
342

Hey @Mmaner - i enjoy a good discussion, so i’m not hurt we don’t see eye to eye on this. I think we’ve both helped folks and likely would get along fine in most settings chatting esk8 or a beer after a ride!

[quote=“mmaner, post:336, topic:23017”] Here are the facts.

Trampa tells every US & European manufacturer that they can no longer sell the VESC as a VESC. This does not effect the Chinese Manufacturers, as there is very little enforcement or penalty restrictions regarding US/UK Copyrights and/or Trademarks.[/quote] Agreed - nothing stopping Maytech or other chinese clones from selling rubbish. Hopefully it’ll be apparent soon that those are junk compared to the offerings from reputable vendors like @Chaka, Enertion, DIYes, etc. etc.

[quote=“mmaner, post:336, topic:23017”] Trampa has the sole manufacturing rights & data for the VESC6, but has not released the VESC6 for sale but is still creating a situation where it is difficult, maybe impossible to purchase a VESC4 or 6, in the short term.[/quote] Also agreed - that’s called good business. He invested and put his money on the table to help v6 become a reality. F’ing KUDOS! Is it expensive - hell yes! Hopefully v6 ref design from others will be less $ and easier for us to afford. v4.xx is still an option though, so i am missing how this is actually impacting ANYONE from getting 4.12 VESC from DIYes (still available and only $100), or VESC-X/FOCBOX from Enertion (~$150), Ollin Board Co v4.12 (~$150-165) - they are still available, and not going to be scarce if those vendors are smart. Until v6 and then i expect we’ll get their version of v6 to pick from as well! Competition is good for us!

[quote=“mmaner, post:336, topic:23017”] All of this was done in secret.[/quote] THIS. This is where a sense of entitlement rears it’s head in my view. Ben chose to do this. It is his creation. His time. His money. And his extraordinary efforts to bring it to us. A sense that he needed to, or should’ve, discussed it with anyone is ridiculous. Instead of “thank you” i hear “why didn’t you let me know first” - to what end? Do you feel like you’ve contributed enough to have a voice - time coding, $ donated, or what tangible contribution to have a say in what he does with his Intellectual Property?

[quote=“mmaner, post:336, topic:23017”] The vendors in this community have ALL donated money to BV, as near s I can tell. Saying the ‘people’ have not requires some numbers and facts to be a valid argument. The vendors that have not donated the BV are specifically chinese manufacturers, this action doesn’t do anything to hurt them.[/quote]

This is your FACTS? That seems like an assumption - and one that might be true for some vendors, but absolutely not all.
I agree it won’t impact the chinese companies - but the first step is tm, then he can at least attempt to curb the use of his name and VESC. Inexperienced users will still buy them, but hopefully when they search they find this forum and we help them steer clear, or towards alternatives in their budget range.

Glad to see you agree that this is Ben’s choice - good or bad according to our opinions. I’ve seen Frank answer a majority of questions. Some likely are depending on more detail being released from Ben.

v6 - OS and ref design “soon”. VESC tool - free to use still. Rename your VESC to your own brand and keep on selling them as-is. No impact, other than an inconvenience to rename and re-brand pcb’s on your next batch. Sharpie in the meantime adequate to black-out VESC. Stupid simple.

I’ve never been accused of being able to do politics - i’m usually far too blunt to placate folks and tell them what they want to hear vs my perception of reality.

AGAIN - why should anyone besides Ben have a say what is done with his IP? We can still buy 4.12 from the vendors linked above (some improved like Direct FET from Enertion and Chaka) - who cares if it says VESC or Purplebanannapowered - as long as it works.

Does VESC 6 sold by Trampa cost more - YES! He’s also splitting profits with Ben - so some of this “greed” is fueling and allowing Ben to continue building better and better ESC’s! OR one of his other projects (look at his github - guy does everything) - all work and no play sucks.

It will adjust. I can’t wait to see reference design options, and “improved” options for specific needs from the smart folks here. Titled whatever they desire.

Can’t wait to see what the future holds. v6 now and more options sooner than when ben was trying to do it all on his own.

my .02

I truly hope you at least partly understand my point of view - as i feel i do yours. Very few things in life are worth investing the stress and headache i’m seeing. My opinion, and not saying it’s not worth at least discussing and asking @Trampa to answer your questions. Spell them out and ask for his response. I think i probably got close, but it’s worth hearing what his opinion is directly on your remaining questions.

11 Likes
343

My respect for you @sl33py has gone up even more.

3 Likes
344

Sad news: Benjamin broke is foot on Saturday. Guss how? Doing dangerous esc- research on an Evil twin drive 12S 7P, dual VESC SIX Trampa MTB, thrashing down the craters test track at ridiculous speed. Just kidding: Tire exploded, worn out, couldn’t wait for the parcel with new tires. He thought the battery exploded and jumped off at speed. One foot got stuck, board spun the foot 270deg. FUCK!

Result: Eight titanium kingpins in his right foot and leg. Just had a longer conversation with him. BETA is in no danger. He has his fingers on the keyboard already, slightly slowed down by a good portion of morphine, still faster than anyone else.

Do me all a favor and send him your best wishes through his forum!

Frank

345

Dude all I am saying is you are being rather rude to a group of people who are concerned with a situation. And they rightfully deserve answers. Just a poor way of dealing with this frank.