New VESC from China. Seems like not only Maytech is making VESC's now

yes we ran them for performance testing and how the unit functioned over all. We don’t pick apart every esc we test, we just don’t have the time. In an industry that welcomes diversity at least in the diy community flip sky has brought products to the market that brings more choices. I personally know and see a gap in the affordability side of the industry. Now with that said every version of the esc unit will not have the highest quality of components, realistically they can’t. to my knowledge we never noticed the difference in voltage, but being that its known now it can be easily compensated for. Does it effect the performance of the unit, NO. can it be corrected or compensated for, YES. does it change the overall reliability of this esc, NO. With all the new advancements now and coming the speed at witch they come will gage the issues we must face building our own boards. AS A COMMUNITY we must maintain the over all willingness to help, give and guide others with our knowledge not confront every variation of something we or (I) don’t like, witch is your option and not fact. we understand a lot of people on this forum are intelligent engineers, designers and programmers. what we don’t understand is the bully factor that sometimes accompanies these big brains.

MY OPION is they are fine and can be compensated for. No one should be taking their battery pack down to with in .05v of your batteries min.

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I’ve been running it for a while now. In 100 degree weather and high humidity…

It’s still running although I had one hiccup when accelerating hard up hill in high heat with my ass being 200lbs. Soo I expected it, but even with that it was after a good a 10 mile ride…

I took it easy on the way home. But the next day after cooling it was a beast for the morning ride. Sadly my metr took a shit after the testing phase of my build. So no data although I’m positive it overheated.

That was the only issue I had, besides that it runs hard… I run with 60,-60, 40, -12 on a single 6374 setup… My development is nothing but hills and I handle it without issues now… As long as it isn’t 90+ outside it has ran flawless.

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If after anti spark switch voltage drops it means either mosfet is not fully open, or its resistance is so high that it decreases voltage which means if you start consuming a lot of current those AS switch mosfets will start burning.

It’s not bully. WE CARE about people lives here as you go down the hill 20mph and suddenly that AS switch mosfets burn you loose brakes and you crash into something fall down or etc shit happens what will you do then? Who will be responsible for it?

Your ESC suppose to be bulletproof it carries peoples around at high speeds there must not be not a single possibility of mistake in this essential device. I don’t see a point of going so cheap just to make it available at a cheaper price range in the cost of quality…

I never understood Chinese people thinking of going all the way cheap… We don’t want to introduce global ban the same way “hoverboards” have done it before just because manufacture went so deep into cheaping it out the product that they ditched the most important element of whole device BMS… There is already plenty of shit happening with Chinese boards available at the market. Broken hangers, batteries catching on fire and etc.

If you can’t produce a product in good quality don’t make a half-ass product and sell it cheap just because you want to grab those lower branch fruits just for profits…

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You know that voltage is used in BEMF calculations? and those resistor values need to be used precise ones?

All input values like voltage/current and etc are need to be precise as those numbers are used in calculations you can just put any type of part just because its cheaper…

0.5V in BEMF is a huge difference…

EDIT: BEMF = Back EMF = Back electromotive force/voltage

Counter-electromotive force (abbreviated counter EMF or simply CEMF),[1] also known as back electromotive force (or back EMF), is the electromotive force or “voltage” that opposes the change in current which induced it. CEMF is the EMF caused by magnetic induction (see Faraday’s law of induction, electromagnetic induction, Lenz’s Law).

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Well, one thing I don’t have ESC as a product, also I haven’t said anything is better than others as far others, and in this topic, I haven’t mentioned any other ESC or etc, I am just talking about problems I see so far in the product.

You just replaced the most important input resistors with 1% which looses precision of almost a half volt:

EDIT: After some research that 1% of difference only should visible at high temperatures and etc, and shouldn’t be any tolerance issues at normal temperatures…

I am leaving this topic and will not be bully for quality just a few regards schematics and specifications are usually done by calculating for specific application not randomly picked from the air, you can’t change values and tell everything is alright without explaining (I still haven’t heard anything about halving input buffer capacitors) :wink:

Also 10-20$ difference in price is like not going out one weekend for a drink…

You should always remember that cheaping out on essential parts can possibly kill you :blush: (Imagine you ride a car with a frame made out of plastic because it was cheaper… Would you trust it with your life :wink: Now imagine ESC shortens your motor phases which blocks your motor and you sent flying at 20mph)

Good luck

EDIT: I know there are better plastics than steel or etc but you get my point

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Well, you said yourself :wink: Also I haven’t seen any single of change done regarding most comments people left about these products

Yes I did. And from one perspective to another the meaning of something changes. I don’t think they would bother being on the forum if they didn’t get something from it. Or use it as a tool to help better their products I know. I ask them to join. @BarbaraZ has been open to the community and our opinions. Maytech as well. And I’m sure they would be open to your direct freed back on the safety of their products. It’s a concern to me as well but at what point. If your building a beast with 12s6p battery pack and duel 6374 190kv with duel esc ( yes you want top of the line. If your building a budget build one motor 10s3p and a 6365 170kv I just don’t see it pulling more than 10-15 amps during regen down any hill you should go down. And temps to melt solder are very high.

I don’t have the 6.6 but I do have a fsesc 4.12 and I have noticed the same thing with the voltage. (About a 1v offset).

I have just compensated for the difference in my voltage cut off.

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From what I see, most of the answers on the questions about components changes have been : See, we have tested it and it works … or … my parts are more expensive, therefore, they should perform better. To me, this is far from a sufficient argument. We all know that some of the usual problems of the ESCs are happening in specific situations that may not be covered by tests (even extensive ones). Tests are definitively important, but good design supported by theory is equally important.

I very much agree with Kug3lis that important changes in the component choices (like reducing drastically the input caps) should be backed up by detailled argument explaining why it was done. Saying that tests were done is not enough. There is also the change by a factor of 10 of the inductor value in the buck converter (the one that was replaced by a molding choke). There was a discussion on Vedders original blog on this value and there seemed to be min and max value … and that it is not as simple as “the bigger, the better”.

To put a more positive note, I am very happy to see new actors on the market … I have bought 2 FSESC 6.6 :wink: but I am also concerned about the reliability of the changes.

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Never make assumptions, they are the cause of most failures and software bugs.

You don’t know if someone has a 10S376P battery and that’s just fine or if they have some weird device they’ve concocted that makes that somehow okay or desireable, and we just don’t understand how or why

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I wish more people were like @Kug3lis. Unfortunately, people will keep buying the absolute cheapest stuff imaginable, and we just have to let them street their face a few times and hope we don’t have our way of life banned because of their foolishness.

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I see differences in voltage from 0.5V to 1.5V depending on the voltage in the battery pack! That is a huge difference. And it also not insignificant, since the ESC regulates at what voltage the battery pack is charged during braking. And I want my battery to be operated within the safe voltage limit. Who can tell what the real voltage is fed into the battery now? ESC thinks its 42, but maybe its much much more. I honestly can’t form a real argument here, since I really do not know enough about electronics, but having a correct measurement of the most important parameter in the system just seems to be rather crucial.

If you do not see the problem in this, its bringing down my confidence in your products a lot.

Were the Changes of the focbox inspected so much ? Or the esk8 Controller?

For the records: My dual (seperate) FSESC 412 show 40.35 and 40.55 Volts compared to the measured value of 40.7 (idle). I’ll check later if its different when the battery is more drained.

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I can see the point everyone is making. I too can see a safety issue if an unfortunate sequence of events happen. ( speculation ) I can also see how critical we can be of this fact. I understand the nature of an industry like this and can see the application of this technology well beyond the realm of esk8. With that said, it reasonable to say that growth isn’t always in the way you see it. We all take a risk every time we step on a powered board or a non powered board. It’s inherently so , regardless of the quality of your components. We don’t want to sell something that may hurt someone, but we are not responsible for what the customer does with what they buy. I can’t see where a snowboard company is responsible for a customer hitting a tree and braking his back. No Our goal is to provide choices. Affordable choices. The one thing that is steadily reaching out of control levels. If only a few can afford it. What about everyone else?

The current attitude I see is, ‘‘let’s wait until something happens due to a sequence of unfortunate events, but if it does…not our fault. If you ride esk8 and use our components, it’s your own fault…because eks8 is dangerous.’’

Right, let’s pay people in Europe identical wages and let’s see if they can make a living. What amazes me is that despite the cheap labour, you find ways of decreasing the cost of critical parts in favour of profit instead of pushing out high quality parts with plenty of leeway to accommodate the ever increasing demands of powerful DIY builds. The high amp ratings are marketed, without making potential customers aware of cut corners nor apparently truly understanding what the consequences may be.

Sadly, these hacks are not just seen in these new VESC based ESCs. As Kugl3s mentioned, it is also seen elsewhere. Cracked trucks, because someone decided that it was OK just to drill massive holes in them to mount hub motors. Stupid motor constructions where the axis is not properly secured. Cheap glue, causing the magnets to slip and the retainer ring to break loose. Sharp edges, cutting the motor leads. No conformal coating for sensor PCBs, leading to shortcuts blowing up VESCs. I could go on.

Due to all of that shit, esk8 will have a hard time to become legal around the world. Frankly, if I was a politician and had any say in it, I would whitelist certain parts and ban all others until they obtain some kind of certification. ESK8 is transportation. Transportation needs to be safe.

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You completely misinterpreted that. Even if certain VESC manufactures here (esk8.de, etc.) were to offer escs with identical components, they would never be able to ask similar prices. To call asking higher prices ‘‘greedy’’ is short sighted in itself. It is not by choice that there is a gap in the market that can be filled by others who obtain cheaper resources and I most certainly do not like the fact that the majority of customers are OK with the delivered quality. Their wallets are more important than their safety. I also know that China can in fact produce high quality parts, but it usually requires heavy scrutiny of the manufacturing process, ensuring that quality standards are met and that the parts are actually produced according to spec.

The story about outsourcing is something different entirely. China is becoming automised. The dependency on Human Resources is decreasing and the need for people with a higher education in certain fields (robotics, programming, etc.) is increasing where people with a lower education virtually have no chance. They remain unhappy, complain even more and the world watches. It’s a downward spiral.

Then there is the issue of surrounding countries becoming cheaper and gaining knowledge. China is no longer the only country with the knowledge to produce cheap parts.

Anyway, going off-topic. I do hope that your VESC based ESCs are stable enough. Time will tell.

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The MOSFETs on the original VESC 4.12 and 6.4 are absolute shit, btw, International Rectifier treats Switching Charge the same way Intel treats Power Efficiency. The ones from ON Semiconductor are not only cheaper BUT also better. (There’s this thing called “Figure of Merit” and if you actually read the datasheet, you’d see it is an order of magnitude better).

The limits advertised on the original 4.12 are bullshit. Quick math on switching and conduction losses shows that over 30A at 37V, the power dissipation (on the power stage) exceeds 6W, way more than the PCB’s dissipative power without forced air cooling. The original 6.4 might make it since it is heatsunk to such a large enclosure.

High capacity MLCCs are not necessary on their ESC because they don’t do the asinine layout of having the electrolytic capacitors three miles away from the power stage, on a separate board. (Even then, a 10uF MLCC will have the same, or higher, ESR as a 600uF electrolytic, and their electrolytic is already low ESR, anyway)

The accuracy on measuring BEMF is not that critical, all you need to look for is the zero cross. I built an ESC myself using STM32 Nucleo and know this for a fact. I used 5% tolerance resistors in the divider, and 20% tolerance capacitors in the filter (which still left a 30% peak-to-peak ripple in the signal). The algorithm basically sampled the BEMF at random, too. Probing with an oscilloscope, the STM32F446RE detected the BEMF zero cross perfectly, every commutation. Even if you integrate, a 1% deviation is insignificant in the timing. A product that uses 1% tolerance resistors is already high quality, many US manufacturers will use 5% or even 10% (sometimes even 20%!!) in their products, and those products still work fine. Higher tolerance resistors become ridiculously expensive and can possibly impose stock issues. The original VESC btw, doesn’t even implement filters on the phase voltage resistor dividers, which makes switching at high frequency and high duty cycles impossible and really cuts down on the efficiency and worsens noise. (On my ESC, I switched at 40kHz and I could run the eRPM up to 130k+, like over 20k commutations per second, sampling BEMF at 70kHz, it performed marginally better sampling at 400kHz, but then my CPU would only idle 80% of the time instead of 97% of the time;_;, it is currently set to 200kHz according to my configuration in STM32CubeMX).

Even in FOC, on the VESC 4, the current shunt amplifiers are inaccurate as hell (4mV input offset, >1% gain error), and yet it can drive hub motors with literally no noise.

The original VESC already freaking cheaps out on parts. There is literally no transient suppression so to speak of (when RC snubbers are literally pennies to implement), why do you think ESCs from torque boards and other US suppliers break so damn often at 12s?! I saw this happen to my friend’s ESC first hand and I repaired it for him.

While Flipsky doesn’t address the filtering (would require a firmware modification) and transient suppression issue, (well they partly addressed it by designing a much better PCB that doesn’t have shitty ass parasitics and using MOSFETs that aren’t garbage), their ESC 4.20 is not only cheaper but superior to many ones from US suppliers: better MOSFETs, proper PCB design and layout (this is a BIG ONE), heatsinks, 6 layer 3oz copper, shielded inductor, etc. Do you research, and unlike many electrical engineers, FUCKING READ THE DATAHSHEET!

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we need more people like you in the game - there is still noone who could really tell why the hell so many drv error happened and what to look for in a design change of the vesc. We need more people giving tips for improvements!

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