Hub motor adapter to direct drive

He’s not selling them for profit, and he’s learning something.

By all means please copy my wire channel patterns for your personal builds, as it will further my brand penetration and get people talking. Just like paying Jerry the highest form of praise by building replicate Carvon hubs did.

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Me neither, just sharing my perspective on some points you made.

There is more to ride quality than urathane thickness, forumlation is another big factor imo, and trying to match the ride quality flywheels and superfly’s offer wont be an easy task.

Could the extra width increases rolling resistance? Thr most efficient bicycles and cars use very narrow tires (think road bike).

You’ve mentioned Carvons on 83’s a couple times. Did you know that it’s a non compatible size per Jerry? I just happen to have all sizes between 83-107mm and decided I’d use them for SPD2 to maximize torque on our tight turned course. It’s also the reason I swept the whole course with a push broom before the event lol. I actually would never run such small wheels normally I much prefer a plush ride on 97mm or 107mm wheels. The option to safely use 83mm with your hubs is a big plus for that extra torque :ok_hand:.

True, but we have had more than a couple KV options available from Carvon. I bought or currently own Carvon’s in 85KV, 110KV, 149KV and 192KV. Pretty decent selection IMO.

Yep, every single one to date.

You mentioned getting thrown off beacuse of a rock as a big issue for Carvons but I havent heard of a single person complaining of this being more than a theoretical issue. I have many hundreds of miles on Carvon motors and it hasnt happened even once. I have run over rocks though. I actually hit a big one during a top speed test at over 40mph. The rock broke in half and left my V2 motors with only a scratch and I didnt fall. It just felt like ran over a street reflector…

Im not sure what other direct drive issues you were thinking of, but keeping heat out of the wheel, ventilating the motors and loading the wheel bearings instead of the motor bearings are additioal benefits of the Carvon design over standard hub motors.

Agreed.

Atm, the Carvons are the only direct drives(hubs included) that have lasted me more than 30miles with out isssue, and Ive tried many. So in a sense Carvon has set the bar. If nobody ever fixes all the issues plaguing hub motors I think carvon would be considered the forward step, but otherwise they are more a side step headed in the same direction.

If you and Hummie successfully create a hub motor that stays cool, rolls plush and doesnt fall apart you will have only the second (or third if the raptor 2 cleans up its act) available direct drive system that works well(imo).

Keep up the good work, us hub guys are counting on you :wink:.

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How exactly are the Raptor 2, and Hummies direct drives? They both are situated in the wheel like a hub motor aren’t they? My understanding is to be a direct drive, the motor is not in the wheel, aside from where it connects through the core?

Another thing that leads me to think the Carvon’s are the best tech at the moment is from what I have seen so far, they are by far the fastest motors you can run. I can’t think of any other hub motors that in just 2WD go 35-40mph, and in 4WD do 45-50mph!

Up until a day ago I thought the Carvon’s were built from scratch. There is a building that I found that shows Jerry building his initial V2’s and V2.5’s.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=68614&sid=3094154600d61fd3da746c8fae7b8eb1

I thought the only things that were taken from the Koowheels was the motors and battery that are on the Exo board. As for the V4 SD and XL I thought those were his own build and design. It wasn’t until my email correspondence with Jerry a few days ago that I found out anything about these motors being modified airplane motors. Also in previous posts from a different thread I read that sometimes you could get Jerry to do custom windings for whatever kv you want. I believe that was stated by Michael in Las Vegas. So if these motors aren’t being wound by him, how can that be explained?

Regarding Hummies hub motors like I said earlier, I have read nothing but great things about them, but don’t know anything at all about them! Do they have comparable speeds and other specs? It sounds like they are built from scratch, is that correct? I really like what I read earlier in this thread that they are wound by the builders, and with a thicker, better quality wire. I would like to know if these are built totally from scratch, would it be possible for a custom order to be placed on a set that allows for the axle to run through the center so an adapter plate could be fabricated and attached?

Also in regards to the adapter plate I was originally asking about in the beginning of the thread, I think the best thing to do would be to build a plate that screws onto the outside end cap, and then you would have a whole set of different configurations to choose from so you can run anything from ABEC’s, to the Enertion’s, Orangatang’s, Evolves pneumatics, etc… It would be a great package to be able to order I think. I would choose that in a second if it came with the right motor. I think Carvon’s ability to change to a certain amount of different wheels is not a marketing ploy, but a genuinely great idea because like other people said, running the sleeve wheels that are very thin compared to being able to run full sized wheels is a no brainer. I would just like to see a product that had adapters that fit nearly all types of wheels, and being able to change the adapter as easily as changing the wheel would be such a successful product. I just hope that more people / companies that make motors start producing hub motors that allow for the axle to run through the whole motor, and equally that it becomes possible to get hangers that, like Carvon’s, run the axle further back, allowing for these motors to be fastened further back so the trucks with an attached hub motor to direct drive aren’t a ridiculous length, but around 10-13 inches, or something like that.

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A direct drive is simply a gear ration of 1:1 therefore hub motors are direct drives.

This is solely based on KV, not because they are mounted on the trucks. If you have Hubs with over 120Kv you will also reach such speeds.

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I can’t accept this is the only reason that they are the fastest. There is so many different brands and makers of hub motors, and I find it highly unlikely that not a single one of them doesn’t have a kv at or above 120kv.

One thing I’m curious about is if you were to put a planetary drive gear system in the hub motor like the Stary board does. From what I understand, this reduces speed, but increases torque? Does anyone know if that is the purpose of the planetary drive system? I have been researching them lately and they look like they wouldn’t be too hard to fabricate a system to incorporate into a hub drive, and got could then get a decently higher kv motor with a planetary drive system so you not only have the speed but you also get good torque as well.

I didn’t know that a 1:1 gearing was a direct drive. So I don’t know what to call Carvon’s system then, but it’s the only one currently that has the motor completely outside of the wheel, thus keeping all the weight off of the motor. That’s what I’m referring too.

Manta Drive: 85KV Hummies: can be custom made as far as I know but mostly around 100KV DIY: 75KV and 130KV (hill grades will be decreased considerably and it’s acceleration/deceleration which is why they advertise them for 6S) Maytech: 60KV Other Chinese brand (meepo): 60KV

which other hubs are there?[quote=“uigiroux, post:46, topic:40064”] Does anyone know if that is the purpose of the planetary drive system? [/quote]

Yes, it is.

Not really. Speed and torque are proportional so even if you gain torque with the planetary gearbox, you’ll loose top speed even though it’s in wheel. Planetary gearbox’s are mostly for stealth. They allow you to keep the torque of a belt drive yet have everything in wheel but for that you’d have to have a higher KV (closer to 190KV if using 10s/12s).

Sorry if I came off that way, defiantly not trying to be rude. Just trying to encourage innovation. Just spit balling ideas. The reason I say that is selling 100% re branded is harder than selling 80% re branded with some innovation you’ve created that the rest of the market doesn’t have. After all, we are a DIY community. So we love to see people try ideas, and I honestly thought it could be a good opportunity for you. Trust me, it’s not as hard to design stuff as you think. Really, you just need a person who knows a 3d modeling software that you can pass 2d drawings to so they can turn them into 3d files. Then, you send these files around to companies in china, and one or any will be interested. A lot of companies in china want to work with eskate builders right now, so it’s not as hard as it was even a year ago. Probably, make a new truck that allows the motors to mount to them, and then an adapter like carvon that bolts to the outside of the motor, and your done. You don’t even need to know anything about motors. Just throwing the idea out there. Not trying to belittle you or anything negative.

Did you know that last poll I saw on this forum about what wheel size people prefer, over 50% said 83mm… A lot of people want small wheels, which is why I mention the carvons and lack of support.

Honestly, i’m glad carvon worked out for you.

The reason Hummie got into making hubs is because Jacobs were garbage, shorting and falling apart while the wheel slipped.

And I got into it cause my carvons fell apart. Bending axle, wheels slipping, it was a nightmare. When I approached Jerry, I was told I was the first bending truck issue. He asked me not to talk about it. Why? Cause I wasn’t the first person to have bending truck issues, He lied to my face. And many others have told me Jerry did the same thing to them. Then, I got no response at times, followed by shipping this week for 6 months straight, every week. And in the end, the best he did was offer $100 off of the carvon v3’s. This is the worst customer service I have ever experienced.

Why did he need to lie to me intentionally, and cover up the bending truck issues? Will he do the same if problems arise in his new products? My guess is yes, he won’t admit fetal flaws, and instead of accepting he fucked up, he pushed the cost of his mistake onto his customers. Most of the industry works like this. It’s disgusting to me. If you sell a faulty product that can’t be fixed, return your customers damn money and accept that your design failed, not your customer.

If something happens to your hummie motors, we’re here, we’ll fix it and if we can not, we’ll get you hooked up with new stuff at cost (free labor), not just $100 bucks off, cause you know hes at least doubling his costs.

The mounting itself is suspect to me. 3 small screws attach the motor to the truck. If those fail, your motors falling off like a raptor 2.

The pully is the same way, a few small screws hold the adapter on. For us, it’s a thin plate. That plate doesn’t have close to the same forces as the adapter because of the adapters length. More length means more leverage, so the forces on these little screws will be high. If that breaks good bye wheel and hello ground.

With the hub, worst case is you lose a wheel, which happened to me on old hummies because I rode with 2 screws instead of 6, but even then you can ride it out on the can, which I did at 23 mph.

When looking at designs, I want fail safe, and so far, carvons don’t seem fail safe, and they structurally failed for me in the past and were covered up. It’s shaddy, and I honestly don’t trust carvon because of the way Jerry has lied to me. He knew I wasn’t the first person have bending truck issues, and instead of recalling them (which would of meant the end of his business), he made me pay for his design flaws. That’s not an ethical way of doing business in my books.

Maybe my complaints are more about Carvon and not direct drive. But IMO, they will always have some structural disadvantage, since they need to be pushed so far inwards on th truck. Your also limited in motor length. Which will always mean small magnets. Can’t get a super strong magnetic field without big magnets.

mmmm really?? If those do break, I’m sure the wheel will simply continue rolling on the axle and you won’t be talking to the ground, you’d simply have no power.

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This is not anything special. You know how you make motors go faster? You wind them to a few less turns and poof, higher top speed. Theres no tech involved, it’s really simple.

People for some reason correlate high speed with high tech, but it’s not true at all. High speed and high torque together is hard. The carvons that can do 40 mph do so by sacrificing torque. If you want torque, you sacrifice top speed. It’s like hub motors gearing.

He picked a higher kv motor, and that’s why it’s faster. Why don’t others do this? Because everyone makes tiny hub motors. Higher kv motors require more amps at startup and thus, more heat. Heat destroys motors. Carvon uses a larger motor than most hub motors, so that is why they can get away with the higher kv.

He’s never wound a motor and sold it, ever. Or had a motor wound for him and sold it. He took sk3’s and turned them into direct drives. No small feet, but not the ground up. If he’s offering kv options, then he found a motor with a few different kvs that he is using. For example, look at the sk3. Same structure, different kvs.

In terms of hummies, you could easily make an adapter mount to turn them into direct drives. You would have a super wide wheel base, but it is doable.

Maybe my fears are not possible. I’m just afraid cause I was lied to multiple times about issues the old motors had. I’m always skeptical of new designs until I ride them for a long time anyways, regardless if it was a respected company or not.

Copying something for the purpose of DIY (for self interest) is one thing (nothing wrong with that). Copying something and selling it for profit is a totally different thing (that’s wrong). Also, we’re esk8 builders. We make things better, or cheaper.

Wow, you know I read in a thread some people had concerns about the axle breaking and after much talking it was stated that this only happened once, so I find this rather troubling… I really have to wondering how much of a markup is being applied to the V4’s and the boards themselves. I’m all for manufacturers making money, but at a reasonable mark up. One thing I noticed last night while thinking about the costs of the 2WD vs 4WD Carvon Evo, I was trying to price the boards out, using the individual costs of each item on its own, from the 1-2 V4’s at $599 or $699, 2 or 4 VESC’s (not sure which one they are using exactly, but I imagine they’re anywhere from $100 - $200), and then I got to the battery. Now I’ve read in forums, and from speaking to Jerry the other day, that longhairedboy is the one who is building the Evo’s, and on Carvon’s description of the Evo 4WD, it’s got a 12s5p battery pack using Samsung 30Q’s. I have to assume he’s using the same battery pack that he sells on his site for $850!

https://longhairedboy.com/collections/frontpage/products/high-powered-electric-skateboard-battery-pack-43v-12s5p-samsung-inr18650-30q

So that’s 60 cells at roughly $3.50 a piece, and I think it’s actually less than that, but for 60 at & $3.50 that’s $210, plus a 60 Amp BMS for probably around $60, maybe slightly more but not much, an anti - spark electric switch, I’ve seen these from $30-$60, a charge port which can’t be more than $10, and a fuel gauge, also can’t be more than $10, and then a 4 Amp fast charger with charge cables, probably about $60. So if you add that all up using the highest values where I have a range in cost that comes to $410, though I’m inclined to think it’s closer to $350-$375. So again I have no problem with people turning a profit for their hard work and quality parts and craftsmanship, but this is a markup of more than double! That’s between $440-$500 in profit, just for a battery pack! Like I really would love to be able to just buy one of the pre-made Evo’s, but at $3000, where potentially $850 is for the battery it comes with, there is no way I am going to make that purchase.

Again I’m not trying to be a dick, though I probably am sounding like one, but that, and now hearing your story about the axle breaking more than I’ve been led to believe has me more than ever wanting to try and get this idea of mine going and putting them on 4 of hummie hub motors!

Do you know if hummies hubs are built from scratch or are they a modified motor?

I know how many will take this. They think I’m trying to bash someone else’s product so I can push a product I’m working on. But it’s really I’m an upset customer of carvon, and I’ve kept my story to myself at Jerry’s request, but I figured, why am I protecting him? I started working with hummie because of my experience with Jerry.

Now, hummie’s motors are 100% custom made from the ground up, every part except the stator (which we will have custom made at some point in the future also). Hand wound in San Francisco, with attention to detail. We have the parts machined in china (can’t really avoid this with out charging over $1000 for a freakin pair of motors), then wound and fully assembled in house here in SF. We also pour the wheels, but we might move wheel pouring to the same company that pours ABEC and Orangatang wheels. Depends on if we end up with a high enough quality wheel on our own or not. We do have good connections with a company that claims to have almost the same formula as ABEC wheels, so we’ll see. Just got it yesterday.

Now, I know what people will say, why talk shit about others products? Two reasons: First of all, I was a carvon customer too, so I feel I have the right to talk about my experience. and the truth is, the wheel is still the final puzzle piece for us. Everything else is rock solid, but the wheels are tough. We are confident we will find a solution, even what we have now is far better than other hub motors. But we have high standards. We want really good wheels, not decent ones. So we don’t have all of the answers either. I’m basically saying no one is perfect. Just that I don’t understand this business mindset of lets gouge our customers 2-3 times our cost, and when things fail, leave the customer hanging… At that price range, I expected better. And I think customers should be able to make informed decisions about what they purchase, instead of decisions biased on fallacies.

We really haven’t done any marketing besides on this forum. I feel like most of the market advertises in such a way that deceives people into getting hyped with marketing gimmicks, to only be let down with the final product. We have sat for 2 years on this motor, testing and learning, instead of selling our previous version which had it’s own issues. We don’t and won’t ship a product we don’t deem to be near perfect.

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Would it be possible for me to order 4 motors from you guys with the center bored out so it could be mounted the way I’ve been talking about and then I could apply my adapter to the outside of it to accept any wheel?

What speed range would I be looking at roughly with say a 100kv motor 4WD? If and what’s your engine wattage?

At this time, the most custom thing we can afford to spend time on is with custom wheel sizes and custom kv’s. If you want to figure out how take our motor and turn it into a direct drive, we could help with ideas. But physical machining would complicate things, since like I said, we have them machined in china, not a shop around the corner who can do custom machining like this on the fly. Would take months to get made and for such a small batch, over $500 per motor at cost to us.

Really, you would just need a custom truck made and a custom locking nut made to turn them into direct drives. They are hollow 100% of the way through the truck now, so the axle, it made longer, can go all the way through. We do use a locking nut now to keep it in place. And you might need to get some custom nut made (or just locktite them down like we did in the past, now we’re using thermally conductive paste thanks to the new design). Then, the pulley adapter would be easy to 3d print even. And there you go, hummie direct drive out of wheel motors, lol.

It’s all doable, but we have our hands full with in wheel motors, which we prefer to begin with.

In terms of wattage, I’ve tested them to 6000 total in 4wd drive. With the wind we use and comparing them to others, I suspect 3000w or more is totally possible. But such high watts will make them get hot. There’s no way around it.

I can do what, 1600 watts per motor with little heat build up.

Maybe an idea thrown in the lot, from another discipline.

The hubs / direct drives (hard to choose a term after reading all this thread) I work on are probably unusable for skateboards.

Now I designed them in order to be able to use any inline skate wheel size starting from 80mm and upwards (84/90/100/110/125/130).

Cut part of the core off standard wheel, mount it and voilà done. No slippage or center problems or heat dissipated in the wheel.

What is interesting (and my point) is : along the numerous types of wheels available, the performance oriented ones are dual density compounds. Same logic as formula 1.

You maximise rebound and grip yet you can also achieve a very predictable sliding wheel. You can fine tune what you need without compromise except cost.

How come I’ve never ever heard of dual density for skateboards wheels?

Would make sense IMO and probably help against many problems.

So your suggestion is to get a truck made that would allow me to mount the motors further in, and fasten it on without using a locking nut for the wheel, but rather, attack the adapter plate to the outside, and then secure the wheel to the adapter on the outside of the wheel? Like the adapter on the left, slide it through, and then screw it on?