FlexiBMS Lite - New approach to get past Vaporware stage

Here is a FLIR video of the first balancing action. Charging a 6S battery with all the lower 5 cells crossing over balancing voltage, which in this case was 4,160 V. It’s running too hot for my taste, especially under continuous balancing, which is compounded if the cells that need balancing are all next to each other. I can use the internal temperature measurements of the LTC6803 and MCU to determine the board temperature on a rough scale.

Recorded on a FLIR ONE (first gen, not available anymore) a very worth it purchase for debugging and troubleshooting electronics and anything thermal related.

4 Likes

As long as the board is not thicker than a 18650 battery it wouldn’t affect any one is it possible to add a heat sink or drop it in to a mettle case as a upgrade so it would never become a limiting factor? Having a case mounted heatsink is some thing I do check if any things not feeling right just put my hand on it and it gives a piece of mined I’m not frying my foxbox on a long hill.

Again, I love your R&D approach. Nothing’s left random.

I second that ! Nice job !

Hand soldering. Hot air reflow station and soldering iron if needed.

Gotta test to know.

It’s a possibility, but IMO a pain in the ass (had a heatsink on the first one). I’ll rather just go for lower balancing current, which lowers the heat generated and allows more time for the heat to spread and conduct away. Seems like a bit of an unnecessary complication, considering it would only be cooling the balancing resistors. Much more likely for the heatsink to happen with the version that has discharge path control also.

Got the charging cut-off and the battery voltage sense circuit assembled.

image

I didn’t get to test the actual charging through this circuit yet, as I started figuring out why I was getting a little too low reading from the battery voltage sense circuit.Connected my ~12,50 V battery, analog pin voltage was around 491 mV, hmmm, checked with a calculator what the ideal voltage should be, 512 mV… These would translate to 11,90 V and 12,49 V respectively. That’s actually quite a lot lower. Why though :thinking:?

Even weirder was that the lower N-fet seemed to be conducting with a gate voltage at 0V. What? Well after some multimeter voltage measuring and checking schematic and fet datasheets turns out I had accidentally put the fets in the schematic the wrong way around, part model wise. P-fet was on the high-side and N-fet on the low side, this is correct in the schematic, but I had somehow mixed up the actual 2N7002 and BSS84PW fet types. 2N7002 is the N-channel that should be on the low side and BSS84PW is the P-channel that should be on the high-side and as you can see from the schematic capture below, I have them wrong way around.

image

Well I was able to find substitute fets from my parts bin and got the circuit working as intended (correct fet types, pin outs and voltage capability). Got the measured and AD-converted result within a couple of LSB too, nice. This mix-up is easy to fix for the next iteration.

Next mistake I found when I started writing the software configurations for the ADC. More specifically when I started to map the analog read pins to the correct channels for the ADC. Anybody notice in the picture below any problems with using the PB2 (CHARGER_SENSE) pin as an analog input?

image

Well… It’s not mappable as an analog channel for ADC… Guess I’m not testing that then. At least the fix will be easy to make for the next iteration. Otherwise the circuit is identical to the battery voltage sense one, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t give as accurate readings. PB1 and PB2 will be easy to flip around and get that CHARGER_SENSE to a ADC input channel. Easy-Peasy re-trace as shown below.

image

I’ll start testing the charging circuit today and then move onto the current sense once that works. Some new board pictures below with a standard XT60 for size comparison (sorry, no standard banana this time).

IMAG0196

IMAG0197

10 Likes

Charging current tests done and I’ve got results.

I used a simple test setup shown below. I’m supplying current from the BMS’ charger side with my bench top configurable power supply and on the battery side of the BMS is a configurable DC load. I don’t need to use an actual battery in the test setup like this. Voltage is not a critical variable in this test as I’m interested only in the thermal performance in relation to the current.

IMAG0198 IMAG0199

The tested currents were: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 Amps. For each current test the BMS was left to run for couple of minutes, allowing the thermals to stabilize after which a FLIR image was taken with FLIR ONE. a FLIR image was taken from the bottom side of BMS on currents 5 and 7 Amp.

I also measured the voltage from the following points (shown below) to measure and calculate the losses happening specifically in the MOSFETs for each test current and after letting thermals stabilize.

IMAG0203

Test current: 2 A
Voltage drop: 53 mV
Resistance: 26,5 mOhm
Power loss: 106 mW

Screenshot_20190322-162206

Test current: 3 A
Voltage drop: 82 mV
Resistance: 27,3 mOhm
Power loss: 246 mW

Screenshot_20190322-162619

Test current: 4 A
Voltage drop: 115 mV
Resistance: 28,8 mOhm
Power loss: 460 mW

Screenshot_20190322-163014

Test current: 5 A
Voltage drop: 151 mV
Resistance: 30,2 mOhm
Power loss: 755 mW

Screenshot_20190322-163519 Screenshot_20190322-163541

Test current: 6 A
Voltage drop: 196 mV
Resistance: 32,7 mOhm
Power loss: 1176 mW

Screenshot_20190322-163902

Test current: 7 A
Voltage drop: 260 mV
Resistance: 37,1 mOhm
Power loss: 1820 mW

Screenshot_20190322-164345 Screenshot_20190322-164413

Here are the results of all the current tests collected to a google sheet and a couple of charts drawn from them.

image


From the charts can be seen the effects of the increasing temperature alongside increasing current. Voltage vs. Current and Resistance vs. Current should technically be linear, but as the mosfets heat up their Rds(on) resistance increases, therefore producing more voltage loss as the current increases. This is then magnified even more in the Power Loss vs. Current, as it already rises in the square of the current.

Conclusion:

With these MOSFETs, I wouldn’t personally go above 5 Amps for the charging current, as things start to get real toasty above 5 Amps. Far cry from the 10 Amps I envisioned in the beginning. So what’s the game plan? I’ll throw a poll at the end of this post to get some feedback on what the forum members think is high enough as the supported charging current.

To achieve higher charging current the MOSFETs should be optimized for as low as possible Rds(on) resistance, to minimize conduction losses -> minimize heat generation. Switching speeds are not critical as the MOSFETs are not run with PWM, but are rather just closed or opened for extended periods. Other 2 important attributes then are package size and cost.

Once I get some votes on the poll below and see what people would want, I can then start to check possible options for the mosfets and then discuss about the cost with them. One consideration though is how high of a charge current should the Lite version support, if it’s meant to be the lighter, smaller and cheaper option.


How many amps do you think the BMS should support as a maximum charge current? (Lite version)

  • 5 A is enough
  • 6 A
  • 7 A
  • 8 A
  • 9 A
  • 10 A

0 voters

1 Like

The mostly common used charger is 4 amps, 6 and 8 is a bit more expensive but our batteries are ready to handle 8 charging amps just fine. Other point with 5+ amps is the connector, the most common is power jack 2,1x5,5mm this doesn’t handle a lot more than 4 amps. Actually I have 8 amps charger and I keep charging to 5 because I didn’t find a nice and small connector up to 8. I think most of the beginner builders they will no go above 5 amps easily. I rather prefer 8 amps but seems logic for a lite version up to 5.

Edit: I want to vote 5 by mistake I did 6 and can’t change it :smile:

1 Like

Looking great

Just a suggestion for the MOSFET

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/toshiba-semiconductor-and-storage/TPW1R306PLL1Q/TPW1R306PLL1QCT-ND/6188444

It was the best I could find for a reasonable price for my antispark switch

I am charging my board at this moment with 8A and want to go to 10 or 12A :see_no_evil:

Voted 6a because. Most common battry q30. spec sheet standard charge 1.5a. Most common battry config 10s4p. 4 Q30 in parallel standard charge 6a.

What’s your pack configuration and what cells?

Might be a overkill and a bit pricy (@ volume 1,4 € ea.) compared to the 20 cents (@ volume) per piece for the current 5 Amp continuous ones.

This is a bit more reasonable. Should be able to do the 10 Amps or very close at least.

Yea, the common 2.1x5.5 / 2.5x5.5 mm DC connector will become the limiting factor after 4 or 5 Amps.

Anybody have any good charger connector ideas/recommendations capable up to 10 Amps?

Thanks for the feedback.

2 Likes

Sorry, completely forgot you are aiming for just 10 A

About the charger connector, at 10A XT30 starts to make sense and really easy to find, unfortunately not waterproof

1 Like

Here is the nicest power jack I could find, they can handle 11 amps, not crazy expensive but it’s bigger than it looks in pictures. http://www.switchcraft.com/Category.aspx?Parent=943

1 Like

XT30 is the best option for me. It’s really thin for the current supported !

1 Like

I use Anderson for high current. 45amps rated. Even more amps capable.

Should have ordered couple of the XT30s from the hobbyking when I bought the GT2B for the Chozen remote mod. I even ordered some MT60 3-phase motor connectors just to check them out…

Maybe I’ll make a small XT30 panel adapter PCB, which can be easily then installed onto an enclosure. Backside of the connector can be filled with hot glue or your goopy filler of choice, so water can’t enter the enclosure through the connector. Although grime and dust will accumulate in the open front area and onto the contacts… not good.

Well at least there is no need for anti-spark connectors thanks to the fully blocking charging switch setup. No inrush really in either direction at least when plugging in the charging connector. But the dirt accumulation can be problem…

2 Likes

I just put a spare XT30 socket in the hole stops dirt getting in . Keep meaning to 3D print a little plug to push in at some point but still haven’t got around to making one yet

EDIT: also

Them caps go over plug and mine only sticks out a few mm on the board. So need to design some thing to go inside the male plug.

Edit Prefer this type of clamp leaves less sticking out the case image

1 Like

So, after looking at the poll results and at the comments. I have decided to go for the 10 Amp charge.

Based on the test results. I would aim the temperature for the MOSFETs to be max ~50-60 Celsius @ 10 Amp. For the current MOSFETs this area currently resides in between the 4 and 5 Amp test currents temperature wise. The effective resistance on the MOSFETs was around 14.5-15.0 mOhm (per mosfet, note 2 back-to-back in circuit) with a power loss of 250-300 mW in each mosfet.

Below is a chart from the MOSFET datasheet showing the Rds(on) behavior according to Id drain current and package temperature and I have marked the location the mosfet is operating in at the 4-5 Amp test currents.

image https://www.digikey.fi/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/DMT6016LSS-13/DMT6016LSS-13DICT-ND/4967052

So to be able to double the current we need to cut the Rds(on) at least to a quarter of what it is to maintain the power loss at the same level. So the beefier MOSFETs can have a maximum Rds(on) of around 3.5 mOhm @ 10 Amps and 50 Celsius.

Digi-key part filtering based on these criteria and then sorting by the cheapest lead me to the following MOSFET. Datasheet inspection shows that this MOSFET should be able to achieve 2.7-2.8 mOhm Rds(on) @ 50 Celsius with 25 Amps of current, which is higher then what we are even aiming so the effective Rds will likely be even lower then what I have circled on the graph below. The power loss @ 10 Amps should roughly be around 250-300 mW, essentially the same as the in the old MOSFETs @ 4-5 Amps.

image https://www.digikey.fi/product-detail/en/diodes-incorporated/DMT6004LPS-13/DMT6004LPS-13DITR-ND/5699713

One thing that will also cause more losses at higher currents will be PCB trace resistance, which will start to be a consideration at these higher currents, this so far has been purely about the conduction losses in the MOSFETs. Quick calculations with trace calculators show roughly a 20 Celsius increase in the traces at @ 10 Amps with the current trace sizes.

So what’s the cost difference?: Price @ volume: old FETs: 0.2€ ea. new FETs: 0.6€ ea.

Worth it? (Component cost)

  • 5 Amp capability baseline cost 0.4€
  • 10 Amp capability +0.8€ -> 1.2€

0 voters

3 Likes