FlexiBMS Lite - New approach to get past Vaporware stage

This isn’t something that just the BMS can do. You would need to re-write Vesc firmware too. Whilst I think that it’s a great idea I think it is a bit much to ask for in this particular case. Also charge only BMS are wired to bypass the BMS completely when discharging; they don’t do any kind of cut off when the board is operating. This is done by most riders as they normally prefer dead cells than broken bones.

In saying that this unit should be compatible with the Metr app and I was going to ask this anyway. @rpasichnyk is it possible to create an alert option for this BMS/diebie that can alert your phone/watch when there is a P group voltage varience above a set value?

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Yeah, is one more complication

For me personally if the BMS balances the cells, and beep following some pattern (one beep low voltage, two beeps one cell bellow the average, etc) is already perfect, if it manages to tap into the CAN bus and show cell voltages in Metr is a plus

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Seeed has now completed their BOM sourcing and shown below is the finalized quote for the 5 boards. I’ll confirm and pay the order today.

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I don’t personally see a problem implementing the cell voltage broadcasting on the CAN bus on the BMS end, but I haven’t looked into implementing the VESC end FW changes and then adding the support Metr.

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If you keep the same packet structure as DieBieMS and assign yourself same CAN ID (10), it will just work :+1:

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Charger/charging related update:

Received a Digi-Key order today and in it I got Mean Well’s ELG-series LED driver that I wanted to try/test for battery charging after being disappointed in the GC120-battery charger serie. Shout out to @Darkie02 for the idea.

Specific model name is “ELG-150-54A”, good for 10-13S packs voltage range wise. A-models have two trimpots to set the CC current and CV voltage.

https://www.digikey.fi/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/ELG-150-54A/1866-1491-ND/7702969

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The charger comes without any connectors on the input or output side, just tinned wire leads, so I connected an IEC-mains connector that I have many cables available for the input side and soldered a XT60 to the output end.

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Charging. IMAG0306

The two trimpots for the CC and CV control are located on the bottom side and the holes have a rubber plugs for ingress protection. The trimpots are located at the bottom of those access holes, which are surprisingly deep. IMAG0307

So how’s the actual performance? Very impressive actually. Very little noise on current or voltage waveforms on the output. Differential measurement, purple line shows the actual current waveform. IMAG0308

FLIR image of the full metal case at around 38 Volts @ 2.6 Amps (~100 Watts). Case feels hot to the touch as the metal case transfers heat well.

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Personally I would say that this LED driver is good for charging use. Just make sure that your charging controller/BMS CAN cut the charging if you’re operating in the CC region.

My particular unit’s CV range via the trimpot was 45-59 Volts and CC range was 1,1 - 3,1 Amps

EDIT: I managed to get the output current to start oscillating (bad). After setting the output current to around 2 Amps and starting the charging, I noticed that the output current started oscillating. If I changed the CC current while charging, it would stabilize, but after un-plugging and re-plugging the charger back it started to oscillate again. It exhibits this behavior within a certain CC current range which for me seems to be about 1,1-2,5 Amps. So if I crank it to the minimum CC current of ~1,1 Amps it’s stable and if I put it above 2,5 Amps it’s also stable. Changing the CV voltage had no effect. Just a heads up.

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This is super interesting. How much oscillation is occurring? I can’t see any scale or reference for the current trace on your scope?

I recieved my meanwell led driver last week and it seems to have been doing well so far. The cables are a little short but apart from that it’s good. I got the 7A version and my BMS is happy with it at both the highest and lowest current settings. The current output seems stable when viewed from my BMS app but I can’t imagine that’s got a good sample rate. You’ve got me curious now to see if I can get mine too oscillate so I may try and stick a scope on it if I get some free time next week.

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@Hummie waveforms

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The purple waveform for the math function has 200mV/grid voltage scaling, so I would estimate that the current waveform voltage is jumping between ~380 to 720mV. Current measuring sensitivity is 250mV/A, so current is jumping between 1,5 - 2,9 Amps.

My BMS’ ADC configuration currently has 16x oversampling and 16x division done on the hardware. 4 MHz ADC clock, 12-bit sample depth. This gives us ADC clock period of 250ns, 12-bit conversion time = 12,5 ADC clocks and I’m using sample time of 92,5 ADC clocks, so 105 ADC clocks in total for the whole sampling + conversion. 1 sample + conversion time is ~26µs, so the whole sequence would be 420µs (:pray: ayoooo) and then those samples would get averaged.

What model and where did you get it from?

I got the HLG-320H-48A and i just got it from Amazon so it would be here next day.

One things that annoys me is that the cable is to short for it to sit on the ground.

Seems like i also get slightly larger CC range that the “rated spec”. Im measuring from 2.8A up to around 7.6A.

Maybe I should order one of them as well… a bit pricy though.

https://www.digikey.fi/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/HLG-320H-48A/1866-2490-ND/7704048

I think I’ll order the 150 Watt one instead for testing.

https://www.digikey.fi/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/HLG-150H-48A/1866-2377-ND/7703933

Might be that the HLG-series’ current control loop is a little bit different compared to the ELG-series resulting in a more stable current behavior.

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Would anybody happen to be able to recommend Trampa mountainboard truck compatible motor mounts? Let’s just say a little something something happened on the way back from work today…

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Luckily I was able to come to a controlled stop, so I’m fine. Motor mounts were from @UnikBoards and probably had 4000+km on them. Hadn’t really checked them over closely at any point so no idea when the metal had started to fatigue. I checked my email for the date when I had purchased them and it was on May 2017, there was also a notification email from them/him:

Nov 29, 2017,
    
Hello

We had a return on a faulty engine mount (twisted with use)
Take the time to watch and inform me if this is the case for you. A standard exchange will be done directly.

Sorry for the disagreement

Had completely forgotten about that.

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Motor seems to be fine, except that I’ll have to to true the rotor bell, as it’s currently a bit offset angle wise causing it to rub against the stator teeth. Also cleaned it when I had it apart.

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@Idea is the man, look at this mechanical porn!: IMG_20190212_231500

@ducktaperules For mine I 3D printed some handling-friendly covers also replaced original cables for longer ones: IMG_20190622_212804

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I ordered a set from @Marsl187


I also finished prototyping the test jig for the SWD connector.

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Simple enough and seems to work. Maybe need to put Nyloc nuts on the backside for the holding tabs, as the bolts start to work themselves loose when you turn the tabs back-and-forth.

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Any update on testing and your verdict on the HLG or as work got in the way of playing again? :thinking: has any one made a esk8 national holiday yet for more building time.

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Funny thing.

I literally submitted my digi-key order 2 minutes ago with the HLG-150H-48A and then popped in here to check if I had any new notifications, so yes I’ll making a post about it at some point soon.

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Bit of background I’m an electrical engineer but I work mostly in PLCs, contractor logic and high voltage transmission, so my solid state electronics knowledge isn’t that crash hot.

My question is what is the fundamental difference between this BMS and say a D140, that allows it to be so much smaller and pack in so many more features, than other BMS on offer?

This thing looks like the holy grail of charge only BMS and I’d be really interested to help develop it if I can.

Thanks Colin

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For reference, I assume you mean the Bestech D140 BMS https://buildkitboards.com/products/bestech-d140-charge-only-bms

After taking a look at the product pictures for the D140, I have couple of notes that I made on the key design differences.


The D140 BMS is very, very simple. No programmable logic, everything is passive/non-programmable. Around 9-11 unique components, most likely super cheap price wise, I’m guessing around 2$ for all the passives/non-programmables, 1$ for the FETs and couple cents for the connectors. It’s built down to price and then made in big volumes. Pretty sure they have good margins on it, or at least re-seller has.

One sided component placement. Con, this means that you need more board size/space to be able to fit an equivalent amount of parts. Pro, cheaper assembly costs, due to needing to run board through SMD line only once, where as dual side component placement board needs to be run twice through an assembly line, once for each side. Interestingly they still opted to use through-hole FETs… I guess labor is cheap(er) in China.

Lack of good competition on the low-end BMS market (or higher end for that matter). Why try harder if you don’t have anyone to compete against and/or your product is selling well.

It’s a cookie cutter copy topology from their other designs.

Low-side load switch topology.

No comms of any sort. No any sort of indication of charging or balancing on the board either, or at least I didn’t spot any led anywhere.


The approach for the design of the FlexiBMS Lite was not price driven, but rather feature driven. When I started this thread I had an idea in my head for the feature set that I then presented to the forum for feedback. From there the design changed and evolved along the feedback and feature discussion.

Once the wanted features were selected and “locked in” I then started to check what the most economical approach component selections wise was to still fulfill the wanted features. Alongside the component selection I’m doing the schematic and layout design and seeing how much board space I have and If I can fit everything or even shrink the board down in size.

My BMS has a lot of high performance components with a good feature set. The board is designed from the get-go with semi-high integration density and uses a 4-layer PCB to be able to route everything. There is just a different design ethos between these two boards, mine is feature driven without so much priority on price, where as their’s is minimal features with priority on minimal cost.

I want to make a cool product, not necessarily the most profitable one, but I think making cool things will always draw some/more attention/customers then just making a dime-a-dozen product.

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Got the Mean Well HLG-150H-48A LED driver and did a number of tests on it. It’s outer dimensions are all a bit bigger compared to the equivalent power ELG-serie driver.

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Measured ranges on the Vo & Io trimmers for open voltage and output current were (measured with Maynuo M9711 DC load):

  • Vo: 41,6 - 53,6 V
  • Io: 0,99 - 4,00 A

Made a little IEC-power cable adapter with a built-in power switch for easy on-off control.

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Onto the measurements and oscilloscope current waveforms. The sensitivity/division for the current/purple waveform is 200mV/div and the current measuring circuit outputs at 250mV/A sensitivity. I have also noted the measured current values for the waveform on the serial terminal, these ADC results are calculated with a 16x oversampling & ~420µs sampling + conversion total time for all 16 samples.

I started measuring from the lowest possible Io current and then increased the current for each measurement seeing if there were any possible oscillating current ranges anywhere. I did not observe the same current oscillation behavior as with the ELG-driver with starting the charging in certain current ranges.

  1. Minimum current setting. 1,05 - 1,30 A. not stable due to current being so low and can be seen clearly turning the output on and off, resulting in the choppy current waveform jumping between ~ 0,4 - 1,7 A

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  1. 1,33 - 1,70 A. Still not completely stable, but the current is clearly starting to stabilize.

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  1. First stable current. 1,83 - 1,92 A

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  1. 2,45 - 2,53 A

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  1. 2,96 - 3,06 A

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  1. 3,49 - 3,59 A

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  1. 3,94 - 4,03 A

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  1. Current waveform when limited by Vo output voltage, slight oscillation can be seen but it’s pretty tame in amplitude (~300-400mA) and low in frequency (~110Hz), so I don’t see this as a problem.

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FLIR image after charging at 160+ Watts for 15 minutes (4 A @ 40+ Volts), runs cooler compared to the ELG-serie as that was externally at 50C with only ~110 Watts of power. Note the caveat that the ELG-driver was meant for one step higher voltages, so this isn’t pure apples-to-apples comparison in that sense.

Screenshot_20190630-170006 Screenshot_20190630-170021

Summary

I’m glad that I decided to test this charger, as it will become my go-to charger based on my testing results. Current output behavior was good apart from the chopping action at minimal output currents. Thermally it seems to perform superiorly in terms of actual output power when compared to the ELG-driver that I tested earlier, even though both are rated for 150 Watts of power. Although you might not necessarily want to push that 4 Amps if you’re on 11S or 12S packs, but seems to perform fine with 10S.

I think it’s possible to add a feature to the FlexiBMS for detecting charging current oscillations, so you can see if your charging is outputting clean current and protect your batteries from bad chargers or at least be informed that the current is oscillating.


Off-topic

Got mah new motor mount kit from @Marsl187 , I’m still waiting for my new gears and belts, so a little break for now from boarding. Kit seems to be good quality and well priced for the 130€ that I paid for the parts and shipping in total. I gave him some feedback on the design to improve them in case he wants to start making more of them in the future.

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Love the design and through testing. May be worth integrating a fuse in that print of yours, just to ensure the longevity of the driver.

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As a thort is it possible to implement a fuse on the charge side. in case any one shorts the charge plug. Iv been using a automotive 7.5A 58v mini blade fuse and just stuffing it in the case.

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Or software to limit the input max voltage and amps of the charge?

Seen people talk about using there 12s charger on the 10s board by mistake or dropping a coin and shorting out the charge point with a huge flash.