Hub Motor & Urethane Riding Qualities

Ouch…:sob: :joy: :sweat_smile: Chris called me a genius!

4 Likes

It’s easy to cherry pick an image of a “fast car” that uses bigger than normal rims. When you look at real race cars in the real world (like the ones I mentioned), here are results of THAT search. I don’t need to cherry pick an “exception to the rule” image to defend a claim.

I believe “Face Skate” wheels were used on the fastest official downhill run (over 85mph) in Quebec. Not Venom. That is a house core that Venom uses with their own spiffy core name. You could use it an Enertion wheel if you wanted. So could anyone for that matter. But you won’t be able to pour Abec 11’s Classic or Reflex urethane in it. Those are proprietary formulas and I’m not sharing outside of a co-branding relationship.

You and I know both know that pneumatic tire are very different than poured urethane when it comes to keeping the wheels on the rims. And we both know how to solve the issue of inserting and removing bearings easily.

The bottom line is that I really liked riding your wheels and want to put a LOT more time on them and really put them through their paces. I really like the smaller size as a good “tweener” fom street to full on off-road.

The only problem is that I need more of your wheels … hint hint … and you’re going need to heal and get some SuperFly’s …

4 Likes

I think that we mostly agree on more points than we disagree on hub motors. If we only talk about hub motors having less torque, then that theory would hold that a board with hub motors would choke off the line but then have a higher top speed. It seems that when using a couple of big motors with more poles, you can get all the speed off the the line that you need. And you get a high top speed. But skateboarding isn’t a drag race. Many (most?) of us are in it for the long haul. How much energy was lost trying to get that thing up to speed? How many times will you be able to “win the drag race” before sagging occurs due to the “always high” gear that you’re running? And what about with heavier riders? There’s a pretty high correlation of fat wallets and heavier riders. Kids tend not to have enough money for a high performance machine. And what about hills? Heavy guys on hills? That can be a real problem if you don’t live in Kansas (flat state).

What I’m saying is that the THEORY of hub motors is that you’d go slow off the line, but the reality can be very different. And what is the price you pay for getting good acceleration from hub motors? Big heat and small range, especially on hills. Some people are going to be okay with that. But what I’m NEVER okay with is a board that feels rough and rides poorly. I have experienced “URETHANE NIRVANA” and it’s really hard to go back to “Urethane Starvation” and be okay with it. If I were FORCED to use hub motors, I’d work on solving the issues with heat and torque and use more urethane.

2 Likes

Yes, that’s exactly what I was hoping for. You make good wheels, nobody can deny that.

Do you not want to make a mold for a core that fits a specific hub motor and pour urethane around it? (even if the cost of the mold is covered and I guarantee a min number bought over the coming years?)

We can’t all agree on whether hubs or belts are better, it is a personal preference, but shouldn’t someone that knows how to make good wheels be the one making hub motor wheels, since we’re already at that thin urethane dis-advantage?

1 Like

Looking at that picture I was wondering if anyone has tried a half in half out hub motor? Meaning the motor is long and narrow and extends out past the edge of the wheel to the truck. That might be a way to reduce heat and keep the inner diameter small. Just an idea.

You’re describing Carvon hubs

Carvons don’t go in the wheel only the gear part does.

No. V3’s and up are direct drive…They started out in the wheels, half way out and then outside. Ride quality trumped aesthetics.

The V2’s had the motor part way into a 90mm wheel yet preserved the entire outside portion of the wheel. The V3’s preserve the entire wheel. A 90mm wheel without any structure (core) bonded or attached to it has at MOST 13.5mm of urethane depth when using a 63mm hub motor. Next to it is a 107mm SuperFly. Got thane?

1 Like

Extra thane doesn’t help in a drag race…

Making a plastic injection molding tool that creates a hard PU sleeve is an expensive proposition. When you have a very small hub you can make an 8 cavity tool or even a 16 cavity tool and then produce hundreds of thousands of wheels that use that hub. With a large hub such as the Flywheel you’re going to want at least a 4 cavity tool which is pretty damn expensive at that size. The original 50mm hub and 70mm hub come from single cavity tools. Making a tool for a 63mm to 67mm sleeve could be pricey. Making a set of wheels molds is also expensive … about $10,000 if you do it in the US. It would probably be at least $20,000 to perform the “experiment”, and that’s for ONE motor size with ONE wheel size on it.

Just making a urethane tube instead of a real wheel is more cost effective, and we already have someone doing that. I’m in no hurry to jump in and spend a lot of money right now, when I believe that real wheels are the way to go. But if you have unlimited amounts of money and choose some sizes, I’d do it.

4 Likes

Wow. Riding in a straight line for 10 to 15 seconds. THAT’S what everyone is buying an electric skateboard for. And here I am spending all this time developing vehicles that are actually enjoyable to ride. What was I thinking?

I hope for all the women out there that you guys don’t look at sex the same way …

12 Likes

I appreciate you want an enjoyable ride, we all do!

You have a tough challenge ahead, the masses just aren’t listening to your rhetoric!

The blink campaign is a great example; $1.5million dollars worth of people this year didn’t seem to care about ride quality or performance, let alone the micro advantages you claim are gained from thickness ratios & secret urethane formulas…

The twats on shark tank clearly have no idea what you’re talking about either, or maybe like most don’t understand or believe urethane thickness plays a key role. The sharks valued inboard at $25 million! Inboard has just 7-8mm urethane? and can’t really climb hills!.. are you beating a dead horse?

According to your scientifc scale of wheel ride quality this setup would be rated lower than your lowest possible rating which is “So bad we never made it”



When it comes to performance & speed, world record results are achieved when using less urethane, not more!



EXAMPLE #1

The worlds fastest downhill skateboard Kyle Wester, speed record of 89.41mph, uses Road Rider Shred Mags 73mm wheels with Just 16.5mm of urethane.

Interestingly these wheels are actually made in china, learn more here

Chris, your expert opinion rates the worlds fastest wheel as “Not too bad” - Just 1mm less urethane and your rating drops to “Feels Harsh, Rides Poorly, Limited Appeal”

>>So why does Kyle Wester use it to set records?

This is what road rider say about wheel performance: The larger core adds to the performance by supporting the wheel and maintaining it’s shape under serious high speed and weight loads. This helps both maintain exit speed, and straight-line acceleration.

Fastest wheels in the world, 73mm & 16.5mm urethane.



EXAMPLE #2

The worlds fastest electric skateboard NGV set the speed record of 95,83 km/h - Using hub motors & Very Thin Urethane

Mischo Erban, two time world champion, says: “It feels good” & “it’s nice”



I don’t disagree that more urethane is a nice feature for some, don’t forget that skateboard have 4 or more wheels rolling on the road absorbing shock & vibrations, that’s why I offer quality, US made, 90mm wheels standard on the Raptor 2!

Let’s just be real with each other, Overall, Urethane thickness is not the most important thing needed to make an electric skateboard nice to ride, there is so much more to it. It’s not the year 2000 anymore & esk8 folk ain’t just rolling down hills in leather race suits trying to shave milliseconds off their best time to win a shiny medal.

The game has changed.

3 Likes

I not sure what @onloop is trying to argue here. That thinner urathane has a smoother ride and more grip than thicker urathane?

Or people who buy complete boards don’t care about the benefits of thicker thane? Seems like the second.

Also comparing to cars is non sense as they have suspension. But since that nugget is now in the conversation I will put some thoughts in the hat. The trend to thinner rubber for road cars is that it looks better, for sports cars it is also so you can have larger brakes.

If you take your regular car in put huge rims on with thin rubber you will get a noticeably harsher ride and be more prone to flat tires. People do it anyway as the benefit of the look out ways the downside of ride quality.

As for purpose made race cars they often have thicker rubber, like formula series cars, trophy trucks, drag cars.

When maximum grip is needed, huge rubber.

Though I still think there is thin correlation between cars rubber and skateboard urethane.

Lastly I will put this here for pure entertainment value.

1 Like

No one on a DIY forum cares what the masses are into. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

16 Likes

What I just got out of Onloop’s post here was that idiots don’t care what you sell them. That setting the bar low is how to make your millions and that’s what really matters. That it didn’t matter that the ngv lost all of it’s urethane on that speed run and regardless of what we know from years of longboarding doesn’t matter. Money talks.

No matter what there will be 2 winners in this debate. The masses will get duped out of their $$$ with great 3d renders and bargain bin facts. Then they’ll replace their crap with good parts. Win/Win

The consumer is the only loser.

Rock On!

19 Likes

Try riding 73mm thanes for hours on a not so good roads. See if you still argue that thinner thanes are better than thicker ones. We want long comfortable rides on eSk8s , not 10 second fast rides.

4 Likes

It’s also called have a good marketing campaign to get the results you want.

“Forget you, dirty peasants. ESK8 Masterrace”

2 Likes