@Calhoun I totally agree with you. There are ways to simulate load. A proper piece of test equipment needs to be modified/engineered to accomplish this. The best way to begin testing is to create a baseline and then introduce variables. But first it is important to remove all variables to create that baseline. Once a good baseline is set, you can scientifically test the results of each variable vs. baseline. You can test individual variables or combinations of different variables to accurately test different configurations. Without a baseline to test against, there is no solid reference. That’s how "Real world testing works!! Otherwise you are just playing with a prototype and fooling yourself. If there is no reference, you really can’t even call it “testing”. Am I right?
I appreciate what you are doing here and it is good. You are stirring up the pot. Challenging the status quo. That challenges all of us to elevate our game. I am very much in support of changing the game and upping the ante.
BS testing claims just piss me off. I work for a company that makes the wiring harnesses for Brammo Motorsports. In fact I cost estimated the first revision of wiring harnesses and had a hand in the redesign of the harness for the Enertia when the company was still pre-revenue. Brammo spent a lot of money dyno testing and testing with other specialized rigs, custom made for testing EVs. They are now quite succesful and their new location is set up very well in Ashland, OR USA. https://www.brammo.com/integrated-solutions/case-studies/empulse-r/
If you call them up, they can answer any questions you have about anything from dielectrics to gear ratios. Maybe Brammo would be interested in adding some products to the lineup. Maybe a dyno tested brushless motor? LOL They are a super chill, progressive company. I believe that PEVs are the future.
Thanks for starting this thread up, Calhoun. 
Righto mate… you win! I think everyone will agree You are the smartest guy here!.. real world testing is a waste of time. Dyno data is king.
Yours sincerely eboard noob
Make no mistake, @onloop, this is an excellent https://youtu.be/JgKPCrG5Nyc
But you made it, and sell one of the products in it, so it is by definition a marketing video. If you insist on using non-impartial means of comparison, then be ready to be doubted. All the variable factors you mentioned could be in play on any of those runs, so what use are they. Did you slam the throttle? Did your knees buckle a bit on the Boosted? Do you have a financial stake in the results?
But yes, I am indeed writing from the point of view of what you call “eboard noobs” and “crazy people”, also known as “forum members”. A wise man once recommended taking part in online forums in his instructions build the perfect DIY:
Please be open minded & willing to learn… be willing to ask analytical questions & be understanding… people are more than willing to help you if you listen.
Even with my limited info (from reading your forum, ES, and owning mass produced boards) I am still unsatisfied with the incomplete, biased and unusable numbers/claims to compare what’s out there, or even to be convinced to go the DIY route. Some of you know I’m enthused about Mellow, but yes, I even after doing my own real world demo of their prototype, I still take their claims with a grain of salt and want hard numbers.
Onloop, your attitude and name-calling closes the community to outsiders, noobs, non-technical people, and more. If this is your goal, perhaps consider screening new members.
No one sees a problem if an e-board seller claims their product has “enough torque to go up ANY hill”?
@Ulfberht Thanks for the kind words. I’m just a consumer who sees DIY as just another product… One with perhaps the most unreliable manufacturer of them all: myself. Just like many forum members here, I love seeing what’s out there, both mass-produced and DIY, and I search for reasons and arguments (for myself) to invest in my next ride.
There is as yet no perfect, all-around lightweight, super performant board, so I need a quiver. Multiple boards cost money. And so, yes, I’d love to know clearly how each matches up before I spend.
The website is called electric skateboard builders
It is not; electric skateboard testers. Electric skateboard science. Electric skateboards performance data.
Its for everyday people who like to build eboards and share their experiences. I also like to think it can be about celebrating the riding experience too…
You can sit behind your desk and argue about specs and test equipment with people on forums or you can build an esk8 and go for a ride and have some fun… Its really up to you. But I prefer if the majority of forums members where the later and I would also bet that the majority of forum members here don’t care about the numbers as long as a product works well in their use case.
I honestly think this level of technical discussion you desire is probably better on endless sphere in the motor section…
I totally understand that you as a consumer wants as much information spoon fed to you as possible so you can make the best decision. But it’s not going to happen unless you go out and do it, which i think would be totally awesome!
For me however i am more of a do’er not just someone who is willing to wait around for answers.
The only way your dream of an unbiased testing facilty will happen is if an independent third party decides it wants to invest at minimum $10 or $15k on dynamometer and design a set of tests for electric skateboards and publish the data publicly… of course they will also need to cough up the funds to buy at least the 5 or 6 top eboards on the market so they have test subjects… it could take about $30k before one result is produced.
I think you need to accept that The various brands selling electric skateboards will never invest money in this kind of advanced equipment or the the time it takes to compare their product with competitors, let alone release the data publicly. Even if they did people like you would say the data coming from them is biased because they have a vested interest.
So after spending $20k or $30k to setup your test lab you still only have a bunch of numbers that lots of average people won’t really know how to interpret anyway… 2nm of torque at 6000rpm doesn’t make much sense to most people. In fact the first thing they will likely ask is for some video evidence. Or simple things like how fast does it go, how long does battery last. Etc.
I know this because my customers tell me this over and over and have done so for the past three years that i have spent designing, building, testing & selling electric skateboards… rarely do they ask for dyno charts. In fact i think you are the first person. They do however want video!. I suppose video is more digestible. It’s an extremely effective method of of communicating information and explaining what otherwise would be technical, complex and confusing to the average consumer. Most people don’t know what kv, Current or torque output means. But show them a product finishing a sprint quicker than another one and they know that one was faster.
So I personally think you don’t need the dyno. Save the $15k just go buy some eboards, go to a velodrome, take a stop watch with you and a video camera. Have some fun riding and making an educational video and do your best to be objective as possible…
I can guarantee the riding video will get more views than your list of numbers produced from various bench tests…
I am just as passionate as anyone else so when a topic comes up that I have an opinion about I will likely express it… sometimes the tone I take might offend others, If so i appologise. But I will not back down if I outright disagree with somthing. I will always express my opinion.
Anyway… go and get your data it won’t hurt.
I’ll be out riding and testing in the real world.
Peace.
Onloop my first post is so far up now that it’s been forgotten. Read the last few lines again.
I spoke about a dyno only as a means to obtain impartial figures that can then be translated to more complete specs widely understood by everyone, whether you make or you buy.
All builders make claims, but…
I don’t care about torque, I want to know how long it can climb that hill with my fat ass on it before burning up.
I don’t care about max range, I want to know what load and speed that was measured with. I am not an idiot and know that starting and stopping will influence this.
I don’t care about top speed, I want to know how long it will hold before diminishing. (this is actually trickier to explain without getting into how battery voltage influences speed, which is admittedly technical.).
I don’t care about having re-gen braking, all electric motors can do this, I want to know if it can bring my fat ass to a complete stop on a 20% downhill without bringing my lithium to a slow boil.
I’m technically a builder since I’ve ripped part my crappy E-go so many times and Frankensteined it back together. Small fish, I know, but it counts. But what I don’t know, I read about. And those things are above you and your clients may not want to know, but I do, so here I am and here I belong.
Feel free to make a video that shows all the above, but I can guarantee you that I’d rather read about range, than sit through vomitous 40+ km, 2 hour gopro footage.
Disclaimer: I don’t actually have a fat ass.
The numbers are for the builders and manufacturers. I have a car but I never know the max speed or how much nanometer torque it has. I dont know if it can brake within 5m on 100kmh.
So if you plan on selling it in the end, look on your customer. They only wantto know how far, how long, how cheap? All people doubt about hill grade anyway. If it can climb thats a plus.
Most noob consumer still think its a toy, expectation is quiet low. If it doesnt climb, thats understandable.
However its understandable that we need some guidelines for specs capability. Not for most, but its the next step towards LEV legability. Thats the reason why we need CE testing and driving test. Its for this and its not cheap to do with independent company. About 1K usd ++
@laurnts, if your choice of car decided whether or not you could make it up that last hill or kilometer without having to walk, yes, you would be worried about that type of performance.
Are you really trying to convince me that car enthusiasts don’t care about top speed though? You’ve never heard the line “0 to 60 in x seconds”?
Here’s another quote from the Raptor page (the previous one was the" any hill" class above:
“0 to 45 km/h in 3 seconds.” Performance stats given just like a car right? What more do you need? Except for the non-minor fact that the driver represent 5% of your car’s mass, while you are 95% of the mass of you on a skate?
Nm = Newton meters
I want the info, and i know how to use it to compare boards. The real source of the controversy in this thread is that some of you, builders though you may be, do not.
Ninja edit: change of “many” to “some”. 
I don’t understand what’s wrong with a comparison video by an independent customer? If I’m comparing 3 boards doing the exact same thing, you might not get dyno stats but at least you can say for the same weight and at the same place X board will go faster or climb faster than Y board. Is that not enough?
Well ur speaking about car enthusiast. I have a car and I am a car enthusiast. When my car was bought I didnt put alot of attention wether it can go 0 to 60 in seconds. I dont buy a race car and so its not important. Even if I do I dont think to bother doing that either, since I bought for cool and not to race.
If numbers is so important, why does f1 and car manufacturers still have test drive circuit? They still have test driver and they still implement aeodynamics sensor on test race? Simply because dyno doenst tell all performance. Its just guidance number for experts, indeed. To set new records and to understand how the system work. Youre right in that.
So thats why I encourage you to build one and or buy eboard first. Get them tested in independent test facility like RDW in the Netherlands. That will provide you the solid numbers you need. Do you think I didnt know or contact them earlier? Yes I did and I also contacted Dutch ministry of transportation as well. No matter how many times you test at home, who gona validate that? Who are responsible for the numbers and if its using correct international methodologies.
If you are so deep with building performance board, start by investing. I am also trying to make budget or performance board. You are not the only one thought about that. But before I spend 1000 euro to transportation test facility, I asked my future customer. They said what I have is good enough. So why do I need to bother doing test? Logically this is true.
I also wont rellying data based on members post here if I want to make claims over my longboard performance when I manufacture them. If you are so into it, the steps taken to it is completely a mess. Unless youre again trying to save money on development. But if your attitude towards saving money is build up right here, why should I trust your board when I know its going to be cheap components in the inside.
I also like mellow board so much thats its simple with hub motor. Boosted also very nice boards. They sell thousands without exact numbers claims, they did their own testing. If it sells, it sells. Our board just ressemble their board with better componnents while have the price cheaper. So no doubt it can overperform it.
I am in line with your thoughts, about numbers and calculations and engineering. Thers no doubt about it.
The reason I’m in this thread is because enertion claims their motors better than typical motors from hobbyking. In fact they even claim hobbyking motor are unsuitable! There are a couple hobbyking motors, scorpion for sure, that will blow away enertion motors. They simply are more efficient machines and won’t burn up as quickly. Enertion makes these claims with no real comparisons just a twenty minute video of onloop telling idiots that his are better and they eat it up. No real information is given throughout twenty minutes, we’re just supposed to believe onloop tried them all and has come up with the best, and he’s selling it, and it costs double. No one who watches that will know any better as to what makes one motor better than the other. If a seller or manufacturer really wants to reveal what their motor can do they will ** reveal what the components and airgap are**. No surprise there it’s the same with anything
:
Are the windings done with typical multistrand stuff or single strand What temp can the magnets get to What strength are the magnets Are the magnets curved and what is the airgap How thin are the stator laminations How big is the motor How much does the stator and copper weight
These things above determine how powerful a motor is. Electric airplane hobby guys test the crunk out of their motors using a thrust meters and thermometers and watt meters. It isn’t hard to do and since the motors are the same and a skating steep hill simulation can be done. Check out rcgroups.com if you’re interested. It’s not a dyno but still can reveal torque abilities if u throw a big enough prop on the motor
Stator laminate thickness makes a huge difference in efficiency
here you can just see the difference between a .35mm stator laminate and a .2mmand here u can see different windings. Thinner multistrand has more resistance and u can’t get as much copper in typically and it will be lighter. These are a 235kv and 200kv motor. 235 ironically with the thinner winding Other mechanical things such as are there two or three bearings and are they press or slide fit. …that’s about it. There’s no magic aluminum or special steel that is going to help make a motor stronger or more durable. . Every manufacturer used the same aluminum and steel and it works fine and isn’t an issue
Having testing equipment is unlikely and informal video demos made by sellers are questionable but what the motors are made of defines it’s engineering and its ability. This is not arguable. If any motor is able to not burn up give a certain amount of amps it’s for a reason, efficiency or higher temp magnets. That’s it. I went to a lot of trouble to get the best components in the hub motors I had made. I know what is in them to say the least. When another seller makes rediculous claims I’ll call them on it
It’s cool. I bow out of the debate here, because my questions have been answered, more deeply than I had anticipated:
Not only do any of the builders here not have a dyno or other testing rig, but many elements of the community, Onloop included, don’t see a need for such a method of analysis, nor for more complete or detailed claims other than the customary single number for max speed, range and climbing ability.
I actually love watching comparison and performance videos and will keep doing it. I totally have nothing against it, I just think there’s a better way…so you don’t need to hope that someone somewhere decided to film the exact two or three boards that you wanted to compare.
You gave a good solid argument that stood up to marketing gimmicks that were unproven. Good stuff. Same to you too @Hummie . Solid stuff
I’ve purposely stayed out of this discussion, as I see both sides of the argument.
Take the information we gather from cars using dyno testing.
One of those being mpg. That number means NOTHING. I bought a Subaru Impreza a few years ago. Was rated for 32 mpg city and I’m lucky to get 18 mpg city. I met someone with the upgrade version of my car, the Impreza wrx. Besides many other upgrades, the most noticeable difference is that it has turbo. That should kill the mpg. It’s only rated at 22 mpg city, while the guy I talked to said he got more like 15 mpg city.
At the end of the day, these numbers are calculated on dynos, in perfect conditions. These conditions don’t exist in the real world, so like @onloop said, these numbers are meaningless.
That’s not to say the numbers don’t indicate something about the mpg I should expect to get, and for that reason, I don’t think they are completely useless, but you can’t use them to justify buying a specific car.
Now again, I think you could get some useful info. But many data points are useless.
Ive been stalking your build @Hummie and your claims are pretty solid. True well at some points we all have to agree that manufacturers can claim anything. Thats why some means something some dont. But yea if we want to engineer and improve, that numbers are very important otherwise you wont know what to expect next.
Anyway I am arranging some test with the test facility once my build is complete. Not sure if speed test or torque test is a part of it, I think its only electromagnetic radiation as I recall. But guys I definitely look up into the numbers if there are. However I also want to see side by side comparison video. Thats how the numbers and performance can relate.
What test are u doing? For magnetism testing u can get an LR meter that measures inductance. For 20$! Really cool tool. See if there are motor shorts as well as reveal kv and if all the phases have equal inductance. I think it would be nice to use a thrust tool that the plane guys use. Add a giant prop and pull many amps at as slow a speed as possible and see what heat it hits. But almost none of the sellers/manufacturers reveal the temp the magnets get to so could be a bunch of ruined motors when things start getting above 80c
It’s a mandatory test to get a vehicle running free on a public road and it’s a MUST rule by the Dutch government. This test will need to be executed by a trusted and or appointed test facility that will make a valid report that this electric motor will not caused any disruptions and risk to the public. Theres nothing about speed and torque, but yea not sure if they gona use dynamometer to do this.
But really I think we could just ask this number back to the company / factories who produces them. Like you @Hummie who produces own motor should do the test to check the kv and performance. This should have been done by the chinese companies as well tbh. But again even if they show me their numbers, I will take them as peanuts. Some real test needs to be done recorded within video with some comparison.
@Hummie btw do you have / know how to disassemble turnigy SK3 motor? I am curious whats in the inside to compare with the chinese hub motor i have.
The sk3 I don’t know specifically but I bet the rotor can easily be pulled off as son as u remove the c-clip.
Mellow gave a quick shot of their dyno in an update yesterday:
Ok, so to make you all happy, i did some dyno testing
Awesome video! Good to see you working day and night with the community. Really transparent and down to earth. Ordering my raptor dual by tomorrow! Really thrilled!